Keys on flute query

Fergmaun · Post by **Fergmaun** » Sat Dec 13, 2003 1:13 pm

If I was to ordering a keyed flute do you need a key for high C.

As I play the uilleann pipes 'B' 4 keyed, 'D' 3 keyed 'C' 4 keyed Chanters full set C I would think I should have 4 keys C nat, Bb G# and F nat on the flute.

All the best

johnkerr · Post by **johnkerr** » Sat Dec 13, 2003 1:50 pm

You can half hole the high C on a flute, but the various cross-fingerings (e.g. oxx ooo) don't really work too well for high C. So yes, the key does come in handy for high C. In fact, on my keyed flute that's generally the only note I use the C key for. For the first octave C I still cross-finger, a vestige from my keyless flute days, I suppose.

Also, it's nice to have both of the F keys (long and short) since they each come in handy on particular passages. For example, going smoothly from D to F is a lot easier with the long F key than it is with the short.

MacEachain · Post by **MacEachain** » Sat Dec 13, 2003 1:53 pm

Hi Fergus,
IMO, get as many keys as you can afford right from the start. I actually bought a keyless flute but as it's an Ormiston it isn't a problem as George uses Pin mounted keys I can have them added later. I have approached George regarding having keys fitted sometime around March, he'll fit whichever keys you want, anything from 1 to 8. If you haven't decided on a maker yet I can recommend George Ormiston, great workmanship, delivery on time, good sound, soft and quiet or loud and raspy. You can hear sound clips on his website. http://www.ormistonflutes.fsnet.co.uk/

Cheers, Mac

Michel · Post by **Michel** » Sat Dec 13, 2003 2:42 pm

key aren't that important, especially for beginners imo.
oxxxxo and oxoxxx are good enough for the high C-I play it in these
ways most of the time, even if I own a keyed flute.
moreover I think is better a good keyless than a medriocre keyed flute-
and good keyed flutes have a too long waiting list for a beginner.
great flute players such as jean michel veillon and mickmcgoldrick have
played for years on keyless flutes before switching to keyed.

jim stone · Post by **jim stone** » Sat Dec 13, 2003 4:17 pm

A c natural key is very helpful in both octaves.
One key does both, of course.
One can certainly get by without one,
but it's worth having and a key that
tends to get used a lot.

Loren · Post by **Loren** » Sat Dec 13, 2003 4:40 pm

Michel wrote:......oxxxxo and oxoxxx are good enough for the high C-.......

......good keyed flutes have a too long waiting list for a beginner.
.

Seth Gallagher will put a keyed flute in your hands in 6 months.

Personally, I think cross fingered Cnat sounds like crap on slow tunes, just not accurate enough to not stand out like a sore thumb.

Also, for me at least, it sucks not being able to play some tunes that I really like simply because you lack the necessary key or keys: You can't crossfinger or halfhole a decent Eb on the typical cone bore flute.

I say get a good six key flute if you can afford one.

Loren

MacEachain · Post by **MacEachain** » Sat Dec 13, 2003 5:01 pm

I'm with Loren here regarding trying to half hole Eb, at least as far as my flute is concerned, the E hole is just too small. I don't see that it's any harder to learn to use a key, as required anyway, whether you're a beginner or not. IMO, the hardest thing to learn is embouchure and breathing.

Cheers, Mac

p.s. You could probably get a 6 keyed flute from Gilles Le Hart in about a year and it wouldn't be all that expensive.

msheldon · Post by **msheldon** » Sat Dec 13, 2003 5:24 pm

On my keyed flute, the C-nat *can* be played by cross-fingering, but it's much clearer, cleaner and louder if I use the key.

Loren · Post by **Loren** » Sat Dec 13, 2003 6:08 pm

I'm not saying one can't get Cnat in tune on a keyless, but some are better than others - some are fairly well in tune with certain fingerings, but then weak sounding. Sometimes you get a strong note but have to do some embouchuristic gymnastics to get the thing in tune and hold it there. When I've been playing 10 or 20 years I'm sure I'll no longer be whining about stuff like that, but in the mean time, gimme the freakin' Cnat key!

Loren

jim stone · Post by **jim stone** » Sat Dec 13, 2003 7:42 pm

Dave Copley keyed flute--four months.

Loren · Post by **Loren** » Sat Dec 13, 2003 8:09 pm

jim stone wrote:Dave Copley keyed flute--four months.

Hey, nice! I didn't realize Dave's wait for a keyed flute was so short these days, awesome.

Loren

gcollins · Post by **gcollins** » Sun Dec 14, 2003 4:50 am

My vote: get a keyless, or 6/8 keys. Why mess around if you're going for keys?

G (today in Chengdu)

Gordon · Post by **Gordon** » Sun Dec 14, 2003 8:34 am

I've been trying not to respond to comments on this thread, but..

Getting a good strong Cnat. on a modern (and many antique) flutes without using the C Key is not only possible but often preferable. To say the cross-fingerings sound "crappy" says more about either the flute being played, or the player. Very few trad players use keys at all, and almost never the C nat. , although I admit this is changing (and not necessarily a good thing). The tone of a fingered C should be strong, and various fingerings allow it to blend in as well or better with the other notes, both in terms of it's sound, volume, and -- in many cases, particularly older flutes -- the intonation within various scales. For eg., 0x0 xxx is sharper than 0xx 000 -- depending on what scale your playing, one or the other may be/sound preferable. Half-holing the B allows for a slide to C, another useful approach. In addition, the keyed C is often a clumsy reach from many notes, whereas the multiple ways to cross finger allow much easier access. In the event of a long-held C note on an air, the key certainly has it's tonal advantages, but part of playing, particularly trad music, rests in how a note is gotten to or is reached, and how it is left; the use of the key is a more abrupt note, like any note keyed, and sliding or moving gracefully into and out of it is more problematic.
I have nothing against a fully keyed flute, particularly in non-trad playing, but to recommend that to a player of ITM it is preferable or an essential goal is misleading and costly. A player of ITM will benefit far, far more by buying a quality keyless flute and really mastering it, moving to keys when (or if) they later feel it's necessary, rather than spending a bundle on a flute that is heavier, far more complicated to play (and play well), and -- through this complicated process -- less immediately gratifying.
Lastly, to anyone with a good, experienced ear for ITM, baroque or any other non-modern music, the use of crossfingerings are generally thought of as tonal colors, adding to the texture(s) implicit in the music, and not as an uncomfortable lack of uniformity. That -- in a nutshell -- is precisely why, conical v. cylindrical aside, more people don't play ITM on a Boehm, which excells in tonal uniformity and comfortable keywork. If that's all you're after, play a Boehm.
Gordon

Loren · Post by **Loren** » Sun Dec 14, 2003 8:55 am

So, there's another opinion for you folks, plenty of points of view to go around on this issue, to be sure.

Loren

Michel · Post by **Michel** » Sun Dec 14, 2003 9:05 am

goodmanyerself gordon
I was trying to reply myself to this bunch of anti cross fingered c posts

,
then i saw your post, that says all what I think on this
topic plus something more, and in a better english than mine !!!