ot nothing to see here, keep moving.

jim stone · Post by **jim stone** » Fri Dec 12, 2003 1:22 pm

I've missed this discussion and, because the topic was
deleted, don't know the grievance--wish I had cuase
I might have been able to help.

But let me say this, from the other side of the
lectern:

you should see what happens to those faculty
who actually try to give students an education.

And this:

we are now routinely graduating
functional illiterates from American universities.
(Often they go into education.) Best

Steven · Post by **Steven** » Fri Dec 12, 2003 1:27 pm

Frankly, it sounds to me like several people here are saying "I had a bad teacher/professor, so education is a worthless pursuit." I think that's way too big a leap, and I don't agree with it. I had plenty of bad teachers in high school and college, but that didn't stop me. One high school English teacher was particularly notorious. Everyone knew that when there was a book test coming up, those who read the book would get a B, those who read the book and Cliffs Notes would get a B+ or A-, and those who only read the Cliffs Notes would get an A. The teacher clearly could not interpret literature for herself, so she read the Cliffs Notes and thought that what they said was the right answer, period. I decided that actually reading the book and maybe learning something was worth getting the B.

One problem is that there are two very different goals in school. One is to learn something, and the other is to get a good grade. Sometimes you have to choose between the two. Other times you're able to do both.

On the whole, though, education (by which I mean learning, not grades) is very important, and if you have a bad professor, then that sucks. It does not diminish the value of the education. It just makes it harder to get. One thing that's important to remember is that professors are not, on the whole, ever trained to teach. They're trained in whatever their field is, then put in front of a class and set loose. Some do well, some don't. Realizing that your professor is a lousy teacher is a very important first step toward taking control of your education for yourself and making sure you learn what you need to, despite the person at the front of the room.

Just my 2 cents.
Steven

jim stone · Post by **jim stone** » Fri Dec 12, 2003 2:00 pm

'As she was dying, my mother looked at me. Her eyes were
shining and she seemed to see me yet something beyond me, too...
I've never seen a look like that before. She said:
'Son, I see something clearly. Love is the meaning
of everything, the universe is made of love, and if
you will open yourself to love, your life will have
meaning, more than you can imagine...' And then she
died. I'm sorry, I've never told this to a class before,
to anybody really, but it is a philosophy of religion course
and I guess maybe it's relevant...'

Whining voice:

'Is this going to be on the exam?'

'I beg your pardon?'

'Is this going to be on the exam?'

'Oh, I don't know, can we forget about exams
for a minute, please?'

'It isn't fair!'

'Look, I just told you the single most moving and
significant experience in my life...'

' It isn't fair.
Also when you grade essays, you make corrections
where you don't take off points!'

'Well, you know, I want to help you to learn how to write
better....'

"Our other teachers don't treat us this way!'

'I'm being paid to give you an
education, it's your money, I have a responsibility
to give you what you're paying for. Education is of
value, I believe. You won't always be young, and someday your
ability to think intelligently may be one of the
best things in your lives. That's how I see it.'

Whining voice;

'Is this going to be on the exam?.'

TelegramSam · Post by **TelegramSam** » Fri Dec 12, 2003 2:16 pm

Nanohedron wrote:
TelegramSam wrote:Well, bloo, I think you're rubbish. So there.
Jeez, can't you do your TSam crabby thing without personal attacks?

it was a joke, nan. we all know that everyone loves bloo. :roll:

Post by **Nanohedron** » Fri Dec 12, 2003 2:17 pm

TelegramSam wrote:
Nanohedron wrote:
TelegramSam wrote:Well, bloo, I think you're rubbish. So there.
Jeez, can't you do your TSam crabby thing without personal attacks?
it was a joke, nan. we all know that everyone loves bloo. :roll:

OK, OK.

TelegramSam · Post by **TelegramSam** » Fri Dec 12, 2003 2:17 pm

Steven wrote: One problem is that there are two very different goals in school. One is to learn something, and the other is to get a good grade. Sometimes you have to choose between the two. Other times you're able to do both.

Actually, my goal is neither of those two. My goal is to get that piece of paper that says "hire me!" and that's it. My father told me last year that if you actually learn anything in college, it's a miracle, the point is to get the degree. And yes, he did go to college. This same one, in fact.

Bloomfield · Post by **Bloomfield** » Fri Dec 12, 2003 2:18 pm

TelegramSam wrote:
Nanohedron wrote:
TelegramSam wrote:Well, bloo, I think you're rubbish. So there.
Jeez, can't you do your TSam crabby thing without personal attacks?
it was a joke, nan. we all know that everyone loves bloo. :roll:

And here I thought I was the only one.

Dana · Post by **Dana** » Fri Dec 12, 2003 2:21 pm

TelegramSam wrote:
Steven wrote: One problem is that there are two very different goals in school. One is to learn something, and the other is to get a good grade. Sometimes you have to choose between the two. Other times you're able to do both.
Actually, my goal is neither of those two. My goal is to get that piece of paper that says "hire me!" and that's it.

H'mm, that explains much...

MurphyStout · Post by **MurphyStout** » Fri Dec 12, 2003 2:23 pm

These talks are stupid. You guys are all ragging on teachers like they are suppost to teach you something. The desire and the level of educational possibilities all come from the student not the teacher. Nobody is going to teach you anything in life if you're waiting around to be taught. School is all about what you put into in and what you take out of it. You can have the worst teacher ever and still learn more than you ever thought possible. People blame their teachers when they should be blaming themselves, including sam. It's not the teachers fault she didn't learn what she should have...

TelegramSam · Post by **TelegramSam** » Fri Dec 12, 2003 2:35 pm

my grip had nothing to do with what or how much I am or am not learning.

My gripe had to do with a teacher blatantly lying about the material that was going to be covered on the final exam and finding it a great joke when his students got upset.

antstastegood · Post by **antstastegood** » Fri Dec 12, 2003 2:36 pm

dhigbee wrote:
TelegramSam wrote:
Steven wrote: One problem is that there are two very different goals in school. One is to learn something, and the other is to get a good grade. Sometimes you have to choose between the two. Other times you're able to do both.
Actually, my goal is neither of those two. My goal is to get that piece of paper that says "hire me!" and that's it.
H'mm, that explains much...

Q: What do you call a doctor who barely passed the MCAT's?
A: A doctor.

Anyway, the degree requires learning something, to be sure. But I don't see what postmodernist thought and Pyrrhonian Skepticism has to do with Engineering. But I don't have a choice. To finish a degree in the latter, I am somehow required to take classes that feature things like the former.

I really don't think I am missing much in life if I don't retain all the irrelevant stuff. I didn't go to college to develop my own philosophy of life. My mind was already made up. I.M.O. there are better ways than college to learn that sort of thing.

riasgt · Post by **riasgt** » Fri Dec 12, 2003 2:37 pm

There are always exceptions to the rule. SamT is upset, probably justly so, but I didn't see the original post either. There are a lot of hacks in education from elementary school all the way up through graduate school. Are all teachers and professors hacks?

Think back on the number of years you have been in school. How many "great" teachers have you had? Can you count them on more than one hand? If you can, count yourself fortunate. If you can't, that really is a sad statement on our education system.

College professors are not hired because of their ability to teach, they are hired on their reputation and "knowledge." Do you think college professors get paid a lot of money? How much real world work do they do outside academia? Sam t, your history professor, when was s/he last in the private sector earning a living?

There’s an old saying: Those who can do, those who can’t teach. Unfortunately that saying does have some truth to it.

I have a BS in theatre arts and an MS Ed. in elementary education. I work in the Computer industry because the pay is better. I love to teach, but look at how hard our society has made the teacher’s job. In early childhood/elementary years, parents, administrators and the states make it almost impossible for a teacher to be anything other than being an information regurgitating, droning plebe. Teachers hear all the time, "we want our children to become critical thinkers," but what is silently tacked onto the end of that statement that is: "so long as don't question us." Teachers are now being asked to not only to teach academics, but also moral values, just so long as you don't step on anyone's toes. Teach our children, no better, raise our children because we the parents are to busy, but don’t you dare discipline them!

Due to state mandated testing, most teachers now are teaching kids how to take standardized tests so they can keep their jobs. Why not just set up a tape recorder at the head of the classrooms and have monitors patrol the classrooms to keep the peace?

On the college and graduate level, ego comes into major play. A professor is teaching a subject because they are “an expert” in that field. As a English Lit. minor, I hade an English Prof. ask me to leave the room because I suggested that there could possibly be another interpretation of a poem?!!! I’m sorry, but as a Lit minor I thought it was my job to critically analyze works of literature and come to a conclusion based on what I read. The prof.’s _opinion_ is more valid than mine???!!!

I got a bum rap on a final in World history once too. I failed the final. Do I remember that I failed and how pissed I was at the Prof. and myself? Hell, ya. 15 years later, is it affecting my job performance or my earning potential, NO!!!

It’s sad that there aren’t better teachers in the world, but really we need hold the mirror up to us and ask why this is. Are we funding education adequately enough to attract good teachers? Would you want to work 16 hour days for less than $30K a year?

Colleges make their name in the world through their alumni. You want to send a message to your college about how you feel about the education your getting? Make your voice heard to the alumni. You watch how thing happen when the alumni step in.

SamT your pissed and you have a right to be. This is not going to break you. Your life has not come to it’s end just yet. Blow this off. Go have yourself a mood altering experience (no, I’m not promoting drugs or underage drinking) and move on to next semester. Don’t take this professor’s class again and encourage your friends to avoid the prof’s classes. Move on!

When you get a great professor, let s/he know, let your school know, let your parents know and let the alumni know.

(just my 2 cents, with inflation

)

Bloomfield · Post by **Bloomfield** » Fri Dec 12, 2003 2:37 pm

TelegramSam wrote:my grip had nothing to do with what or how much I am or am not learning.

My gripe had to do with a teacher blatantly lying about the material that was going to be covered on the final exam and finding it a great joke when his students got upset.

Murphy's point exactly, I'd say.

riasgt · Post by **riasgt** » Fri Dec 12, 2003 2:38 pm

There are always exceptions to the rule. SamT is upset, probably justly so, but I didn't see the original post either. There are a lot of hacks in education from elementary school all the way up through graduate school. Are all teachers and professors hacks?

Think back on the number of years you have been in school. How many "great" teachers have you had? Can you count them on more than one hand? If you can, count yourself fortunate. If you can't, that really is a sad statement on our education system.

College professors are not hired because of their ability to teach, they are hired on their reputation and "knowledge." Do you think college professors get paid a lot of money? How much real world work do they do outside academia? Sam t, your history professor, when was s/he last in the private sector earning a living?

There’s an old saying: Those who can do, those who can’t teach. Unfortunately that saying does have some truth to it.

I have a BS in theatre arts and an MS Ed. in elementary education. I work in the Computer industry because the pay is better. I love to teach, but look at how hard our society has made the teacher’s job. In early childhood/elementary years, parents, administrators and the states make it almost impossible for a teacher to be anything other than being an information regurgitating, droning plebe. Teachers hear all the time, "we want our children to become critical thinkers," but what is silently tacked onto the end of that statement that is: "so long as don't question us." Teachers are now being asked to not only to teach academics, but also moral values, just so long as you don't step on anyone's toes. Teach our children, no better, raise our children because we the parents are to busy, but don’t you dare discipline them!

Due to state mandated testing, most teachers now are teaching kids how to take standardized tests so they can keep their jobs. Why not just set up a tape recorder at the head of the classrooms and have monitors patrol the classrooms to keep the peace?

On the college and graduate level, ego comes into major play. A professor is teaching a subject because they are “an expert” in that field. As a English Lit. minor, I hade an English Prof. ask me to leave the room because I suggested that there could possibly be another interpretation of a poem?!!! I’m sorry, but as a Lit minor I thought it was my job to critically analyze works of literature and come to a conclusion based on what I read. The prof.’s _opinion_ is more valid than mine???!!!

I got a bum rap on a final in World history once too. I failed the final. Do I remember that I failed and how pissed I was at the Prof. and myself? Hell, ya. 15 years later, is it affecting my job performance or my earning potential, NO!!!

It’s sad that there aren’t better teachers in the world, but really we need hold the mirror up to us and ask why this is. Are we funding education adequately enough to attract good teachers? Would you want to work 16 hour days for less than $30K a year?

Colleges make their name in the world through their alumni. You want to send a message to your college about how you feel about the education your getting? Make your voice heard to the alumni. You watch how thing happen when the alumni step in.

SamT your pissed and you have a right to be. This is not going to break you. Your life has not come to it’s end just yet. Blow this off. Go have yourself a mood altering experience (no, I’m not promoting drugs or underage drinking) and move on to next semester. Don’t take this professor’s class again and encourage your friends to avoid the prof’s classes. Move on!

When you get a great professor, let s/he know, let your school know, let your parents know and let the alumni know.

(just my 2 cents, with inflation

)

Yakas · Post by **Yakas** » Fri Dec 12, 2003 2:42 pm

You can have the worst teacher ever and still learn more than you ever thought possible.

That's partially true. A truely good teacher not only conveys knowledge to you, he also inspires you. A bad teacher is not one that doesn't tell you what's on the test, it's one that makes you think "who cares" I'm lucky enough to be at a school with some absolutely incredible professors, but even they are largely stronger in one of those two areas. Some classes teach you how to do things (Electrodynamics I: How to integrate in three dimensions

), while others make you interested in a subject and want to knoe more about it (Classical Mech, with the classic old school physics professor). Both styles are effective, and you really need some of each.

If you're goal in school is just to get a diploma, though, it's hopeless. I'd even go so far as to say that you're wasting your time, money and everyone else's time and money. This probably isn't true, as some fool will think you're better because you went to school, but on any higher level it's just stupid.

While you're in school you should make the best of it; after all, you are spending fourn years and many thousands of dollars on what should be an education. Find some subject that you're really interested in and get into it, you'd be suprised at how enjoyable it can be. After spending a lot of time in a subject, you'll realize that you aren't just learning a bunch of random (and largely worthless facts), but that you're really learning to think.

(I'm sure this sounds like something from an intellectual elitest basmati, which it more or less is. The school I go to (I am still a student, third year at an undergraduate school) is by and large a superb place to learn, and the students want to learn. I'm sure being surrounded by those who don't want to learn makes things difficult, but I can't really give any advice there.)

-Gabe