Recent program on NPR

EricWingler · Post by **EricWingler** » Mon Dec 08, 2003 10:38 am

Thistle and Shamrock aired an interesting program this past week. At least you'd find it interesting if you're the sort of person who finds discussions about the connections of classical music to folk music interesting. The host Fiona Ritchie stated that in the past classical music composers sought out folk tunes to include in their works. (Brahms and Liszt come to mind.) I enjoyed hearing piece by J. S. Bach played in an Irish traditional style. It really added some pep to the piece.

MarkB · Post by **MarkB** » Mon Dec 08, 2003 1:23 pm

Beethoven was one of those that heard Irish music in Vienna. There were whole brigades of Irish in the Austrian army in his time and one Irish lord became a Field Marshall, with a whole army that spoke nothing but Irish.

George Thomson commissioned Beethoven between 1809 and 1820 to preserve the finiest melodies of Scotland, Ireland and Wales, "in the best possible settings."

"He (Thomson) commissioned Beethoven to compose, preludes, accompaniments and postludes for them, scored for piano with optional violin and cello."

Beethoven produced 176 separate settings for Thomson.

The above information came from the CD: Beethoven Folk Songs, Philips 442 784-2; Wolfgang Holzmair, Trio Fontenay.

MarkB

peeplj · Post by **peeplj** » Mon Dec 08, 2003 1:30 pm

Going by memory here, but I believe the air "The Poor Irish Boy" was penned by Handel.

Many times classical composers have looked to folk music for melodies and themes; occasionally the reverse happens and a theme or melody from the classical side makes its slow patient way into the tradition.

As another example, I think much of O'Carolan's music is far closer to the classical side than to the folk side.

--James

RonKiley · Post by **RonKiley** » Mon Dec 08, 2003 1:47 pm

The Thistle and Shamrock show was very interesting indeed. I enjoyed the music almost as much as Traditional music. I like many of these shows that demonstrate links between various traditions. It has been obvious to me for many years that the music and dancing of the Shennandoah valley and beyond was highly influenced by Irish folk forms that entered the valley during the 1700s.

Ron

brewerpaul · Post by **brewerpaul** » Mon Dec 08, 2003 2:26 pm

peeplj wrote: As another example, I think much of O'Carolan's music is far closer to the classical side than to the folk side.
--James

Actually, O'Carolan lived right in the midst of the Baroque era of classical music, so this is not surprising. I recall that he was influenced by quite a few composers of the era, most notably Corelli.

jim stone · Post by **jim stone** » Mon Dec 08, 2003 2:51 pm

I've been told the lovely melody of
'Ode to Joy' was a drinking song.

LimuHead · Post by **LimuHead** » Mon Dec 08, 2003 3:56 pm

Is there a website where I could hear this program? It sounds intriguing.

Gustav Holst, aka the Planets guy, used a lot of folk melodies in his 1st and 2nd Suites in Eb for Military Band. 'The Dargason' is what made me want to learn to play Irish music. I was a Baritone horn player at the time in all-state band, and although Mr. Holst never gave the melody to the Baritone horns (the stinkin' bassoon got the big fat solo intro) it has the honor of being the first Irish melody I ever learned. And I learned it on the Baritone at that! I still like to play that tune.

antstastegood · Post by **antstastegood** » Mon Dec 08, 2003 4:15 pm

Quoth Limuhead:

Is there a website where I could hear this program?

Since they took it off my local station, I have looked high and low for it. You might try:

<a href="http://publicbroadcast.net/wgte/ppr/ind ... x.shtml</a> Sunday 7-8 pm
<a href="http://www.publicbroadcasting.net/kunc/ ... x.shtml</a> Sunday 1-2 pm

I have not yet had a chance to try these, and you might want to check on the exact times. (no time zone was specified for either)

EricWingler · Post by **EricWingler** » Mon Dec 08, 2003 8:54 pm

LimuHead wrote:Is there a website where I could hear this program? It sounds intriguing.

Well, the main site is http://www.npr.org//thistle/index.html
However, I don't think there are any sound recordings, only the playlist.

peeplj wrote:As another example, I think much of O'Carolan's music is far closer to the classical side than to the folk side.

If I heard correctly, some of O'Carolan's music was featured on this program.

Roger O'Keeffe · Post by **Roger O'Keeffe** » Tue Dec 09, 2003 4:16 am

You'll also get very Irish-sounding dance-tune themes in the Mozart wind concertos, including one which is the melody of "The green grassy slopes of the Boyne" (in spite of the reference to green, this is an Orangemen's tune, which I suppose would all sound a bit Irish to an Englishman).

The Chieftains cottoned on to this connection and used to combine a Mozart horn concerto with "The Earl's Chair", which I think is featured on one of their records.

jbarter · Post by **jbarter** » Tue Dec 09, 2003 6:10 am

Roger O'Keeffe wrote:(in spite of the reference to green, this is an Orangemen's tune, which I suppose would all sound a bit Irish to an Englishman).

I've also been told that at the Battle of the Boyne most of William of Orange's army wore green uniforms.

Tyghress · Post by **Tyghress** » Tue Dec 09, 2003 7:37 am

The Running Set, by Vaughn Williams...(not meaning to cross post!)

jim stone · Post by **jim stone** » Tue Dec 09, 2003 8:43 am

Variation on a Theme by Thomas Tallis (sp)'? by
Vaughan Williams does some far out things
to a tune that is very close to, but not exactly like,
the Star of The County Down.

Roger O'Keeffe · Post by **Roger O'Keeffe** » Wed Dec 10, 2003 5:31 am

jbarter wrote:
Roger O'Keeffe wrote:(in spite of the reference to green, this is an Orangemen's tune, which I suppose would all sound a bit Irish to an Englishman).
I've also been told that at the Battle of the Boyne most of William of Orange's army wore green uniforms.

The Pope, moreover, celebrated a Te Deum Mass in thanksgiving for William's victory. Not quite sure how Ian Paisley fits that into his scheme of things. History isn't always as simple as some people would like it to be.

rbm · Post by **rbm** » Wed Dec 10, 2003 5:59 am

brewerpaul wrote:
peeplj wrote: As another example, I think much of O'Carolan's music is far closer to the classical side than to the folk side.
--James
Actually, O'Carolan lived right in the midst of the Baroque era of classical music, so this is not surprising. I recall that he was influenced by quite a few composers of the era, most notably Corelli.

I was always led to believe that alot of the O'Carolan tunes can be traced back to Scottish dance tunes (waltz's etc rather that traditional) which would explain why they do not fit in with other Gaelic music.
Richard.