Totally Overwhelmed!

[SwtCaro]

Hi all. I've been lurking for a while and decided to jump in today. I've been playing the tinwhistle for just two weeks. I've played the r******r off and on for a few years now, and I played the B flat and E flat Alto Clarinets for 9 years thoughout school. So, I thought I'd be in a pretty good position to pick things up, and for the most part I am, but this ornamentation is driving me crazy.

I got The Complete Irish Tinwhistle Tutor with CD that everyone raves about. And my heart is sinking as I listen to the CD because everything is soooo fast and I've been working on rolls almost for the two whole weeks I've been playing and they sound nothing like they're supposed to. Does anybody besides me thing they're overrated? It doesn't seem like they're very pretty. But maybe I'm just ignorant and uncultured.

Also, I'm trying to play along with the CD, but NONE of my D whistles are in tune. I have a Jerry-tweaked Sweetone D, but it's still flat when compared with the CD. I got a Generation D that's a dud, a Walton mellow D that's a dud, a Clarke Meg D which I like very much, and the Clarke Original D that I started out on, which I do ok with. I like the sound on the tweaked Sweetone, but when I get to the high register G or higher I really have to push the note out compared to the high F sharp, and none of my other whistles do this. Any thoughts?

Can anybody give me any hope? Is it always discouraging in the beginning? I'll bet I'm just trying to go too fast, right?

Thanks,
SwtCaro

[IDAwHOa]

I cannot comment on any of your technique issues, but would suggest you get in contact with JF immediately and discuss the problems you are having with the whistle he tweaked. He will make it right for you.

[antstastegood]

Welcome to the board.

I have been working on rolls for almost two months now, and I didn't even try until I had already played the whistle for a few months. However, I have been assured that it will come in time. As for them being overrated, I guess it just depends on personal preference.

One excellent resource for all things tinwhistle can be found here:
<a href="http://www.rogermillington.com/siamsa/b ... osteve/</a>

Glad you can admit to being a rec*rder player-- that's the first step toward recovery!

All the best,
ants

[Jerry Freeman]

Hi, SwtCaro.

First thing to ask about your tweaked Sweetone is, have you pushed the mouthpiece all the way in? They are tunable, and it sounds like yours is pulled out a little too far. They're usually a little sharp with the mouthpiece pushed in all the way, so you should be able to get it to play on pitch.

Second, different whistles take different amounts of push to get the top notes of the second register, and above G is where it starts really taking a lot of push. It may be that your Sweetone takes more than the other whistles you've mentioned, but I think it's probably acting normally.

However, if you really think something's wrong with the whistle, I'll be happy to replace it, and I'll check the tuning before sending the replacement just to make sure.

Best wishes,
Jerry

[serpent]

Hi all. I've been lurking for a while and decided to jump in today. I've been playing the tinwhistle for just two weeks. I've played the r******r off and on for a few years now, and I played the B flat and E flat Alto Clarinets for 9 years thoughout school. So, I thought I'd be in a pretty good position to pick things up, and for the most part I am, but this ornamentation is driving me crazy.

I got The Complete Irish Tinwhistle Tutor with CD that everyone raves about. And my heart is sinking as I listen to the CD because everything is soooo fast and I've been working on rolls almost for the two whole weeks I've been playing and they sound nothing like they're supposed to. Does anybody besides me thing they're overrated? It doesn't seem like they're very pretty. But maybe I'm just ignorant and uncultured.

Also, I'm trying to play along with the CD, but NONE of my D whistles are in tune. I have a Jerry-tweaked Sweetone D, but it's still flat when compared with the CD. I got a Generation D that's a dud, a Walton mellow D that's a dud, a Clarke Meg D which I like very much, and the Clarke Original D that I started out on, which I do ok with. I like the sound on the tweaked Sweetone, but when I get to the high register G or higher I really have to push the note out compared to the high F sharp, and none of my other whistles do this. Any thoughts?

Can anybody give me any hope? Is it always discouraging in the beginning? I'll bet I'm just trying to go too fast, right?

Thanks,
SwtCaro

It's not your whistles being flat. It's the CD being sharp. A lot of places that burn 'em crank the pitch up a tad to "brighten" the music. Every whistle I make, every one I have from Alba or Busman, is right on the dot with a chromatic tuner. Put any of 'em against a CD with a supposed D tune on it, the whistles all sound flat. The best cure is a tunable whistle or six to play with.

Do NOT be discouraged about the ornamentation. Two weeks is a tiny time to be trying to "get it"... You need to allow months for that, and years to get really proficient (IMO) unless you're some kind of musical prodigy. Ornamentation is in your head, not on a CD. You listen to and play with the CD to get the idea, then "listen to the music playing in your head" and use the techniques to realize it. I have a life-long musical background with oboe and English horn. I have about a year and a half with whistle. I can't play an ornamented "Jean's Reel" or "New Mown Meadows" to save my life yet... but I'm sneaking up on it!

Whatever you do, don't give up. Just enjoy the ride. You'll get better and better with time, I promise! Oh, and don't play stuff you don't like. That's a really good way to turn yourself off to playing. Instead, listen to the technique, then apply it to what you WANT to play.

Have fun!
serpent

[dublingirl]

Hi SwtCaro,
I had the same problem all the time when trying to play tunes from ones I had recorded in class - the recording came out a different tone altogether from the D whistle I played into the tape.
So I would suggest to you to get a cheap Eb whistle, which should be at the same pitch as the recording, & play this along with the music on tape or CD.
Then you can practice the tune on your D whistles afterwards. This might work for you!
By the way, the Cillian O'Briain tweaked whistles are very good. I havent tried Jerry Freeman's but I'd say they're great too!

Dublingirl

[waitingame]

Oh, and don't play stuff you don't like. That's a really good way to turn yourself off to playing. Instead, listen to the technique, then apply it to what you WANT to play.

Surely the best single piece of advice you'll ever get!!

[brewerpaul]

I also came to whistle via many years of recorder, and I'll repeat my often mentioned recommendation of Bill Ochs' Clarke Tinwhistle book/CD set. YOu will be able to skip a lot of the early stuff devoted to learning to read music, but Bill's ornamentation section will make a HUGE difference. He teaches the ornaments in a very logical sequence, using the taps and cuts to gradually build into rolls. Plus, he plays all examples-- first slowly so you can hear them clearly, then at tempo. Take your time, and you will get it down.
You are asking your fingers and brain to do some very un-recorderlike things here, so expect it to take some ( a lot?) time.

[mat]

I've been working on rolls almost for the two whole weeks I've been playing and they sound nothing like they're supposed to.

Ive been working on rolls for about 12 years and they still dont sound like I want them to!

Stick at it though they make the music (along with a whole load of other stuff). I tried and tried to get the knack and never really hit the spot until one night I dreamt I could play ornamentation and when i woke up.......I could. Honest, it was after about 8years of playing though so dont hold your breath!!!!!

In my opinion the only way to tweak a sweetone is with a sledgehammer

[Tyghress]

Caro. . .PATIENCE! Be kind to yourself. Remember how long it took you to sound decent on the recorder and clarinet. It didn't come after a week or a month or probably even after a year.

If you've been lurking, you've seen us mention Bro Steve's site. He has a great section on rolls, and slow is what its all about.

I found my recorder experience to be a detriment to my whistling, and had to completely stop using one in order to swap over.

You say you've been working on rolls for two weeks...but you don't mention how long you've been playing whistle, or whether you're comfortable using cuts and taps and such. If you don't have comfort with them the roll aren't going to come.

Good advice above from the other denizens. . .but also, let me suggest you get the Roni Amazing Slowdowner that will let your computer slow down a track to any speed that is comfortable for you....and even adjust the pitch if you have too.

[susnfx]

Here's the link for BroSteve's site:

http://www.rogermillington.com/siamsa/brosteve/

As I recall, I posted my frustration with rolls very shortly after taking up the whistle too, and now (almost two years later) know I was trying to move things along too fast. Rhythm is more important than the ornaments. Plenty of time to tackle rolls! I don't know that I've ever heard rolls described as "pretty" - they're an ornament to the rhythm, not the melody.

Susan

[colomon]

I got The Complete Irish Tinwhistle Tutor with CD that everyone raves about. And my heart is sinking as I listen to the CD because everything is soooo fast and I've been working on rolls almost for the two whole weeks I've been playing and they sound nothing like they're supposed to. Does anybody besides me thing they're overrated? It doesn't seem like they're very pretty.

Ummm... I've been working on rolls since 1999. I'm pretty sure I wasn't doing them properly until mid-2001 -- and when I got a lesson two months ago I still was scolded a couple of times for sloppy rolls. (Though I did much better on them than I did in my lesson last year.) Two weeks is not nearly long enough to learn how to do them.

And they're a rhythmic device, pretty is not a word I would use to describe them. Elegant or graceful, maybe, but not pretty.

[Numex]

Hi all. <snip>I got The Complete Irish Tinwhistle Tutor with CD that everyone raves about. And my heart is sinking as I listen to the CD because everything is soooo fast and I've been working on rolls almost for the two whole weeks I've been playing and they sound nothing like they're supposed to. Does anybody besides me thing they're overrated? It doesn't seem like they're very pretty. But maybe I'm just ignorant and uncultured.

It's early days yet! I think there is a *tremendous* amount of learning material in a small number of pages in the CITinwhistle Tutor. It takes a long time to absorb it, much less master it. Listening to the fast track makes me want to keel over in my chair in despair. Others have good suggestions on less daunting online tutorials or books. However, if you consider the CITinwhistle Tutor akin to your old music method books, you will benefit from returning to it as you learn and become more proficient. "Aha!" moments can come in stages from various sources

[Bloomfield]

If you have a bit of money to spare get Bill Ochs' Clark Tinwhistle tutor, that is better for learning, I think.

There are two tricks about rolls: (1) Going sloooooooooooooooow, and (2) doing them for 10 minutes EVERY DAY. And after six months you'll get it.

If you care to hear about other peoples' roll woes, check this thread out: Roll Over

[JayMitch]

One criticism I have of the Complete Tin Whistle Tutor is that it tries to cover to much too fast. It discusses ornamentation in a way that is appropriate for a beginner, gives some examples for practice, then fills up the back of the book with examples that are really quite advanced.

Rolls and other such ornaments are essential if your objective is to play Irish music -- they are an integral part of the style. The hard part if you have played other instruments is to understand that they are fundamentally unlike ornaments you already know. They come from the piping tradition and are better described (IMO) as articulation, rather than ornamentation. Even though I heard that said repeatedly, and believed it, it took me at least a year to really get that concept through my thick head.

I suggest:

1. Practice cuts, taps and rolls around each note. Practice slowly and rhythmically. By slowly, I mean the space between the primary notes, not between the cut or tap and the primary note. The cuts and taps themselves should be done so quickly that the adjacent pitch is not really heard. That won't be the case at first, but is something to work toward.

2. Don't even try to introduce ornaments into actual tunes at first. When you're ready, try introducing some cuts first. Don't be in a hurry to introduce rolls.

3. LISTEN LISTEN LISTEN to good trad whistle and flute players until you get the sound of well played cuts and rolls in you ear. You can't get there it you don't have a clear model to shoot for.

4. You might look for a book and CD to be released in the next few weeks by Grey Larson called Tin Whistle Toolbook (or something like that). I haven't seen the book yet, but I really, really like the way Grey explains ornaments.

5. (Warning: certain people who's opinion I respect will throw tomatoes at me for the following). If you are half-way serious, and can afford it, and unless you have a teacher or mentor who can help you figure out which whistles are playable, which are tweekable, and which belong in the trash, find $120 or so and buy a good tunable whistle like a Burke. I know, I know, a good whistle won't make you sound like Mary Burgin and great players can make a cheep whistle sound phenomenal. Still, a good moderately-priced whistle can eliminate a lot of unnecessary frustration. And, if you lose interest, good whistles are easy to sell.

6. Some will disagree with this too, but I think your recorder and clarinet background can be a plus IF you understand that some things you have learned don't fit with Irish music and will have to be unlearned. Ornaments are one example. Where you take a breath is another. Getting a good overall feel for the style is a whole 'nuther subject (refer to point 3).

Good luck, and have fun.

--Jay