Serpent versus Burke whistles

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Jack
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Post by Jack »

Quote @ Tony
Cranberry, don't forget that Serpent, is constantly improving his products. You should do a review on one of his current whistles instead of repeating an older review of something revised or possibly discontinued. Who knows, you may be pleasently surprised.
Point taken. I very well may be. Bill and I have actually talked about that.

Quote @ Jerry Freeman
It's my understanding that Bill (serpent) discontinued the brass trio a year or so ago because he wasn't satisfied with it himself.
Why would one sell and market a whistle that you were not satisfied with yourself? That's unethical business practice, IMHO.

Quote @ Jerry, again
It's worth mentioning that he has had the courage to go into whistle making full time, so his livelihood is riding on his whistles' reputation. I can't imagine he would be happy to see a negative review posted and then repeated about a whistle that was discontinued long ago and doesn't represent the quality of his present work.
Courage? I think depending on whistles, which are not the easiest thing to sell and have a small market of potential buyers anyway, to be your livelyhood borders on idiocy, not courage. I do have sympathy for anyone relying on whistles for their income as I know it must be difficult (that explains all Serpent's recent business posts in violation of board policy) but I don't consider it to be my job to make anybody happy (in case you hadn't noticed :wink: ).
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Post by peeplj »

Why would one sell and market a whistle that you were not satisfied with yourself? That's unethical business practice, IMHO.
No, Cran...that's just the learning experience we all go through when we start doing anything.

Folks like Michael Burke, Michael Copeland, Hammy Hamilton, Pat Olwell and others didn't learn how to make fine instruments overnight. If you find any of their earliest instruments, I would imagine it wouldn't compare to their latest work, viewed as a musical instrument, although it would have value to a collector.

Two years from now when you hear recordings of yourself playing now, you'll think "Ugh! Did I really sound that bad?" But you have to start somewhere when you learn anything.

Besides, I have an early Serpent, and it's not a bad whistle. Not my easiest to play whistle...but then again, my Hamilton isn't my easiest to play flute--but it is my best one.

--James
Jack
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Post by Jack »

I posted a long reply here but it didn't show up. That's probably a good thing but it still pisses me off. Oh well.
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Post by PhilO »

Call it idiocy or courage or whatever, I think it's great to have people try to earn their living by following their gut and heart. In any event, I think the idiot would be one who kept a whistle that he or she was dissatisfied with instead of returning to the maker for adjustment or refund. I'm sure Bill, like the other makers, would not balk at remedying in that way.

I have a new Viper which is a good solid whistle and very beautiful. I also have a Dreadnought, which as I posted earlier is not for everyone, and is difficult to learn. Once the embouchure and breathe is suitably adjusted though, it's an interesting unique very chiffy sound. It's not my favorite whistle or one that I go to consistently and it's not as good a player as it is a looker, but I want it in my collection. That's me. However, look at the innovative prototypes coming from Bill lately at reasonable cost. In my book, glad he and such others are here. It would be nice as well for us to give feedback to the makers privately as to what we really want..hmmm...I'm thinking of that perfect whistle design right now...I see delrin fipple, nickel silver ferrules, shiny black polymer tube, brass slide...moderate size teardrop tone holes...

Regards,

PhilO
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Post by chas »

peeplj wrote: Folks like Michael Burke, Michael Copeland, Hammy Hamilton, Pat Olwell and others didn't learn how to make fine instruments overnight. If you find any of their earliest instruments, I would imagine it wouldn't compare to their latest work, viewed as a musical instrument, although it would have value to a collector.
I concur, but must point out that Mike Burke's original design wide-bore brass was in such high demand after he discontinued it that he had to revive it. Having three generations of his whistles, I still like the WBB the most.

I was recently in touch with someone who has an Olwell flute with ho tuning slide. When I asked her why she chose the flute without a slide, she told me that Olwell didn't even OFFER tuning slides when she bought the flute. It had never occurred to me that Olwell ever didn't know how to make a flute with a slide. :)
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Post by Ridseard »

chas wrote:I concur, but must point out that Mike Burke's original design wide-bore brass was in such high demand after he discontinued it that he had to revive it. Having three generations of his whistles, I still like the WBB the most.
What makes it even more remarkable is that the old style WBB being sold now are old stock. I don't think they are being made anymore. Probably when they're gone, they're gone for good. Personally, I like better the newer model with the Delrin lined windway anyhow. It is practically perfect, IMO. I've been playing one for 9 months now, and I can't fault it in any way.
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Just a small correction

Post by serpent »

I'm sorry to stick my nose in here, but I do want to correct a small misconception - I'm not totally without resources if Serpent Music doesn't make it. I have a small but reasonable retirement income from other sources, and won't, like, go hungry or lose my house. I didn't want anyone thinking I'd be going on Welfare or become a street person living out of a shopping cart.
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Post by Zubivka »

Cranberry wrote:Why would one sell and market a whistle that you were not satisfied with yourself? That's unethical business practice, IMHO.
Hear Mr Morale speaking!

I won't comment too long on how much understanding you're ready to spend on others, while claiming it for yourself, Cran'. I'm getting old and tolerant. Or maybe it's the pain-killers I've been gulping these days :)

But I'll tell you this: try and sell someting of an art or craft done by your hands, or just your wits--from writing to painting to crockery the choice is large.

THEN you may comment on the intentions of other artists or craftsmen. Then again, you'll find out you'll express it in a much less assertive tone.

The reasons you'll learn on this Way of modesty are multiple.
- There is no such thing as a perfect art or crafts piece.
- There's this spot you know you covered up in your painting.
- There's this dye you purchased and discover much later it fades with time, or darkens.
- Anyone painting with lead based white (common rule in XIX th century) was "unethical" because it blackens with time.
- Anyone painting with dry pastels is "unethical". It fades with UV.
- Much earlier, before oil-based paint was invented, the artists couldn't ignore the albumine would crackle in time. Botticelli was "unethical".


- Any Japanese traditional craftsman leaves on purpose a flaw in every of his creations. Japanese Masters of Crafts (it's an official title) are thusly unethical.

Anyone, even mastering--by anyone's standards--a given craft will in time invent a new, improved process, or a heavy modification of his design. This constant improvement, in MY opinion, is precisely the mark of real masters. This motion is related to the constant doubt faced by any creative person in the course of production. Every artist or craftsman knows that he has to STOP a work at some point, otherwise he'll never end up improving the one and same product. So every work out the workshop has to be a balance between perfectionism and a way of humility. Humility being in this case an understanding it will never be perfect anyway.

In this sense, any artist or craftsman is "unethical" or plain sloppy, else his craft has mummified...

This long path is precisely the philosophical interest when (for instance) Japanese learn a craft as part of their spiritual education: it can be flower art, or ceremonial tea, or sabre, or Younameit-Do.

Finally, your fault may be thinking of people in a static way. Things they individually produce are just a material extension of their mind at instant "t". The only products I know of which are static, frozen at a given development point, and consistent across batches and time, would be industrial. They are not individual, but collective work, which evens out singularities. And even there, there are variations: not two cars are alike, and in simpler products just try and two Generations perfectly matched ;)

remember:
You can't swim twice in the same river.
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Post by Jack »

Quotes @ Zoob
Hear Mr Morale speaking!
Yes. Nice to meet you. :lol:
I won't comment too long on how much understanding you're ready to spend on others, while claiming it for yourself, Cran'. I'm getting old and tolerant. Or maybe it's the pain-killers I've been gulping these days
I think this just has more to do with me and Serpent not liking each other. Got any oxys?
But I'll tell you this: try and sell someting of an art or craft done by your hands, or just your wits--from writing to painting to crockery the choice is large.

THEN you may comment on the intentions of other artists or craftsmen. Then again, you'll find out you'll express it in a much less assertive tone.

The reasons you'll learn on this Way of modesty are multiple.
- There is no such thing as a perfect art or crafts piece.
- There's this spot you know you covered up in your painting.
- There's this dye you purchased and discover much later it fades with time, or darkens.
- Anyone painting with lead based white (common rule in XIX th century) was "unethical" because it blackens with time.
- Anyone painting with dry pastels is "unethical". It fades with UV.
- Much earlier, before oil-based paint was invented, the artists couldn't ignore the albumine would crackle in time. Botticelli was "unethical".


- Any Japanese traditional craftsman leaves on purpose a flaw in every of his creations. Japanese Masters of Crafts (it's an official title) are thusly unethical.

Anyone, even mastering--by anyone's standards--a given craft will in time invent a new, improved process, or a heavy modification of his design. This constant improvement, in MY opinion, is precisely the mark of real masters. This motion is related to the constant doubt faced by any creative person in the course of production. Every artist or craftsman knows that he has to STOP a work at some point, otherwise he'll never end up improving the one and same product. So every work out the workshop has to be a balance between perfectionism and a way of humility. Humility being in this case an understanding it will never be perfect anyway.

In this sense, any artist or craftsman is "unethical" or plain sloppy, else his craft has mummified...

This long path is precisely the philosophical interest when (for instance) Japanese learn a craft as part of their spiritual education: it can be flower art, or ceremonial tea, or sabre, or Younameit-Do.

Finally, your fault may be thinking of people in a static way. Things they individually produce are just a material extension of their mind at instant "t". The only products I know of which are static, frozen at a given development point, and consistent across batches and time, would be industrial. They are not individual, but collective work, which evens out singularities. And even there, there are variations: not two cars are alike, and in simpler products just try and two Generations perfectly matched
That is what my last post that mysteriously vanished (mabey it was deleted?) was about and I thought I explained myself well but I am not going to type all that again because I'm having severe hand problems now so I'll just have to go unexplained.

remember:
You can't swim twice in the same river.
Actually, I can't swim at all. :P
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Post by burnsbyrne »

Zooby Dooby,
I want to thank you for your recent post. It is excellent wisdom for the old as well as the young! I spent decades not trying things because I thought I would not be perfect at it on the first go-round. Now, in my middle age, I realize the mistake in that sort of reasoning - perfectionism disguised as piety. I still fight with the tendency. So thanks for the wisdom, oh Ukrainian-French-Breton Man of Wisdom. (did I get them all?) Ciao,
Mike
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Post by Tyghress »

Cranberry wrote: I think this just has more to do with me and Serpent not liking each other.
Boy, does THAT say it all.

This is why some peoples reviews/opinions need to be taken with a grain of salt the size of a house, and a good reason to stop reading posts.
Remember, you didn't get the tiger so it would do what you wanted. You got the tiger to see what it wanted to do. -- Colin McEnroe
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Post by glauber »

This is an unfortunate thread. Both Burke and Serpent make good whistles. Different whistles, different ideas on what they should like, but very good implementations of these different ideas. My Burke and my Serpent are the best tuned whistles i have. With time i came to prefer other whistles, but to say that Burke and Serpents are not great whistles, would be just plain wrong.

Personally, both men are kind and generous, people that i'd be honoured to have as friends.

g
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Post by Jack »

FWIW, that review was posted months before our problems started. But yeah, I don't like Serpent and he doesn't like me (that's been obvious lately).

Now Walden...
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Post by Tony »

Cranberry wrote:FWIW, that review was posted months before our problems started. But yeah, I don't like Serpent and he doesn't like me (that's been obvious lately).

Now Walden...

Point made. So simmer down, you're only calling attention to yourself... in a negative way.
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Post by serpent »

Cranberry wrote:FWIW, that review was posted months before our problems started. But yeah, I don't like Serpent and he doesn't like me (that's been obvious lately).

Now Walden...
Cranberry, you are incorrect. Details in your PM, but suffice it to say that I do, in fact, like you. But as you well know, I don't always agree with what you say. Big difference, my friend.
Cheers, :)
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