Whistle material which has most stable tuning?

Azalin · Post by **Azalin** » Wed Oct 15, 2003 8:17 pm

Heya, I was wondering what type of material is less likely to get sharp by playing it. I know that alluminium changes a lot, not sure about others. Any help appreciated, thanks.

lixnaw · Post by **lixnaw** » Thu Oct 16, 2003 2:07 am

burke conposites won't change, no matter what temperature

Zubivka · Post by **Zubivka** » Thu Oct 16, 2003 2:34 am

PVC same as bakelite I'd say...

Now, for metal resonance, brass warms up quicker, yet cools down slower (or is more stable) than aluminium IMHO.

lixnaw · Post by **lixnaw** » Thu Oct 16, 2003 4:10 am

Zubivka wrote:PVC same as bakelite I'd say...

Now, for metal resonance, brass warms up quicker, yet cools down slower (or is more stable) than aluminium IMHO.

not quite, bakelite won't melt that easy, it's also used on pan handles

McHaffie · Post by **McHaffie** » Thu Oct 16, 2003 6:44 am

Wooo Hooo!! Cool topic... Here's one for ya....... IMHO Wall thickness, overall design both also will make a difference on any metal as to it's stability while being played, or more to the point, once it gets nice and warm... where the tuning "lands".

I've found in my various experimenting around with different materials that the thicker wall metal tubing will have better stability overall, and I'm assuming that thicker wall=slower temperature change. That being said, I'm using a thick walled, anodized aluminum and I've found that it stays stable and consistent, whereas the thinner walled copper whistles I've made before were not quite as stable until you warmed them up. And I have found that aluminum and brass do seem to be a bit more touchy than copper. Lovely world of metals.

I could definately see where plastics and composties would be superior in avoiding any sort of change due to temperature compared to metal because of their properties, but I've never made or played one long enough to tell you!

The point though, is that any whistle should be tuned to 'playing' I would imagine. All I can tell you is that I play at the local hoolie every chance I can catch a ride, (almost every Monday night) and I've never had any trouble with one of my aluminum whistles going sharp on me after playing it for even 2-4 hours. Sometimes however, we have trouble with the fiddler going sharp after a couple of hours

Ah well, enough of my ramblings. Whatever metal or plastic you choose I'm sure will do good by you.

Take care,
John

Zubivka · Post by **Zubivka** » Thu Oct 16, 2003 7:13 am

lixnaw wrote:
Zubivka wrote:PVC same as bakelite I'd say...
not quite, bakelite won't melt that easy, it's also used on pan handles

Well I never played long or fast enough to melt a whistle; never pan-handled either, come to think of it

Or did you mean the Pan Handle just up Haight-Ashbury ? the funny (pow-wow) pipes I've seen used there better be fire-proof fer shuure...

The Weekenders · Post by **The Weekenders** » Thu Oct 16, 2003 9:37 am

Though Az was very specific in his question, I would pose a different way of looking at it after viewing the replies. I have a Burke Alpro and BrassPro made identically.

There is no question that the aluminum is more sensitive and has to be adjusted as you play. If its too cold (outdoors) it reaches a point where you can't push it in anymore, but thats an extreme. And, it is pretty thin-walled so I am sure that has something to do with it.

The question is: the characteristics that make it sensitive also make it dynamic and I am not sure you want to trade that away, though maybe there is a technological solution.

I have played with a Boehm-style flute player for years and years at concerts and gigs. She has a fancy Miyazawa flute with some improved head joint by another craftsman so we're talking thousands of bux. She always tuned it at first, we would play a few things, then she would tune it again. I have come to realize that I have to do the same thing with my much simpler whistle, though the heat of the fray of onstage trad playing makes it hard for the noise and for time taken away between the tune sets.

As soon as I get a few semoleons together, I am planning on ordering a Burke composite as my next good whistle. But I do wonder if it will have the dynamic quality of the Alpro, which seems to rise to the occassion of playing at the pubs. I recently got an E in Alpro, because my Brass seemed so drowned out when we play. Playing at home, it sounded harsh and balky compared to the brass, but its more prominent in the group and I am using it there now. Anyway, just an observation or question......

Azalin · Post by **Azalin** » Thu Oct 16, 2003 1:14 pm

So what about wood? Is it worse then alluminium? Better? (in term of tuning). I'm not talking about stability of material *once* it reached a certain temperature, I'm talking about material that won't change tuning much when it's warming up. A whistle like a generation or feadog won't change much, but I guess this is because the tube is thin so the material won't "store" lots of heat.

I played an Abell whistle a lot in some recent sessions and it didnt seem to go out of tune much, but I'm not sure.

Zubivka · Post by **Zubivka** » Thu Oct 16, 2003 3:19 pm

I may be very wrong here, but this is how I interpret my personal experience.

I live in a really damp area, like "the bogs". Salt marshes, actually, just 25 yards away from the house. It never gets really cold. It never is really warm, esp. inside the house. So, off-season, the best whistles sound systematically flat at first.

So the first impression when I pick up a whistle, is how it feels--warm or cold. Aluminium is the coldest, for some reason. Some days, esp. in the early morning, the whole surface of an alloy low whistle seems to "sweat" during warm-up. Then comes brass (and nickel-silver, same thing), quickly much more comfy, then plastic, and wood definitely feels the warmest. How much of this is in my head, I'm ready to admit on the paper, but what I feel is what I'll call comfort, right?

Now, the wood whistles are still sensitive to this fresh-damp climate. They don't need warm-up as much to get in tune as to react properly to octave switching, and getting a profound bell note. Condensation to blow out at first, hoarse transitions, etc. AND they're the slowest to reach their sweet point; I just experienced this to-night (here it's 11 pm, we're GMT +2) and the lower wooden whistles were sluggish to warm up. Biggest mass, or longest tube, I don't know; actually, from my experience in engine-cooling fields, it has to be both, a tube has to react just as a cooling fin, supposing your mouth is the engine i.e. heat source.

Anyway, I speed up the warming phase by blowing from the bell end, holes closed.

This influences my practice: I just can't pick up a whistle and go ahead if it sounds crappy before the proper gymnastics...
If I want a quarter of an hour, quick and dirty, then I'd better pîck up a high whistle first, preferably the tweaked Shaw.

From this viewpoint, the best was the Sindt: the thick brass head is so robust and compact, I could walk in the house with it in a trouser pocket. Fancy playing? Voilà, stick it on the cold tube, and it's ready in minutes. Wouldn't do this with a delicate wood head, would you?

So, the wooden whistles aren't as convenient to start as a Sindt head. Now, once they reach their sweet point, they stay there, much more stable than any metal: just as slow to cool down as to warm up, and this at least follows every rule of thermodynamics.

This is no scientific research, but I come to think it has to be one big reason why, once I got my first wooden whistle, and this was in winter, I couldn't stop...

OutOfBreath · Post by **OutOfBreath** » Fri Oct 17, 2003 6:45 am

There are two primary causes of instability, humidity and temperature, and both can cause tuning to drift both over the short (single session) and long (seasons) term.

Metal is pretty much impervious to humidity -- but is the most sensitive to temperature changes.

Compared to metal, wood is reasonably stable in reference to temperature, but is very sensitive to changes in humidity (in dry mountain and desert climates it's not unusual for a guitar fretboard to shrink so much that the metal frets are left protruding noticeably -- and painfully -- beyond the edges of the fretboard).

The various plastics are absolutely the most stable, being impervious to humidity and very stable in relation to temperature, at least up to the point at which they begin to soften -- and if anyone has breath that hot I don't want to know what they've been eating!

My Burke composites are rock stable in their tuning. Unfortunately, I still have this thing about sticking "sewer pipes" in my mouth

John

skh · Post by **skh** » Fri Oct 17, 2003 6:58 am

Zubivka wrote:From this viewpoint, the best was the Sindt: the thick brass head is so robust and compact, I could walk in the house with it in a trouser pocket. Fancy playing? Voilà, stick it on the cold tube, and it's ready in minutes. Wouldn't do this with a delicate wood head, would you?

I know, I know, I'm talking recorders again... this is common practice amongst recorder players. I've seen people in concert keeping the heads of their (probably hand-made and valuable) recorders in various folds and pockets of their clothing. A variant at master classes is keeping the whole instrument (traverso or recorder) in the pullover sleeve while waiting for one's turn.

Sonja

serpent · Post by **serpent** » Fri Oct 17, 2003 8:44 am

Since I make the Polly and the Viper on the same dies, and the Polly is CPVC and the Viper is brass, I've found that the CPVC whistle is almost instantly playable, and almost never changes or clogs, even in the rain(!!), while the brass will clog for a few minutes while warming up, and must be kept warm while playing.

That said, the difference in sound is remarkable - the brass is bright, while the CPVC sounds more "woody". The brightness gets brighter as the brass warms, while the plastic doesn't seem to.

I'd vote for CPVC, short of going and looking up thermal coefficients.

Cheers! (nice to see ya back, Az!)

serpent

Azalin · Post by **Azalin** » Fri Oct 17, 2003 2:15 pm

serpent wrote:Cheers! (nice to see ya back, Az!)

Hey, I never left!

So bottom line, I have to go with PVC if I want stable tuning. This is what I was assuming, but the problem is I don't like to play most PVC whistles I've seen. The Susato is too loud and if I want to keep some friends at the session I'd better not play it. I also have a Silkstone PVC and Water Weazel but they don't seem as responsive as other whistles.

Oh my, what am I gonna do?

Zubivka · Post by **Zubivka** » Fri Oct 17, 2003 4:01 pm

Why don't you try a Burke composite and/or Sweetheart Professional (the basic, laminated birchwood, model).

Both are kind of hybrids of woodfiber and plastic, and I never heard them quoted as sluggish.

I guess both manufacturers would agree to give you money-back guarantee if you explain your needs.

Azalin · Post by **Azalin** » Fri Oct 17, 2003 4:30 pm

Hmmm how loud is the composite? I need something kinda louder than quieter... The Ralph Sweet whistle, well, it might be recorder-like a little too much, isnt?