Why are "Native American Flutes" so expensive?

brewerpaul · Post by **brewerpaul** » Mon Sep 22, 2003 5:08 am

Vaporlock-- that is some gorgeous work. If they sound as good as they look, people should jump all over those. I'd send you a check in a minute if I didn't already have several NA flutes-- I don't yet suffer from NAOA.
People-- for the price, those are a huge bargain.

Easily_Deluded_Fool · Post by **Easily_Deluded_Fool** » Mon Sep 22, 2003 7:11 am

vaporlock wrote:I haven't been posting here much lately 'cause I've been off building NA flutes. I've probably made 30-40 of them in the key range of low Dm to high C#m. It's been a great amount of fun and a wonderful learning experience.
snip

In that case, can I be foolish and ask.....

I made a NA flute. ratio 25:1 instead of approx 18:1
(not the one pictured in this thread)
Made from a curvy stick ....

it seemed easier to make the NA sytem fipple than
any other sort, adding to the uniqueness of this flute.

All the notes are fine in both octaves except the bell note,
which is very weak, although within 10% on the tuner.

If I were to make the very end of the bore a little bit wider,
do you think this might help the note become louder?

Would it alter the rest of the notes because the overall average
bore diameter would have increased?

Thanks

carrie · Post by **carrie** » Mon Sep 22, 2003 11:03 am

I'm one of the lucky owners of Eric's flutes. Mine is in walnut, canarywood, and bloodwood. It is the most beautiful flute I have ever seen by a long shot, with a tone to match: a work of art. I'll try to post a picture soon.

Carol

vaporlock · Post by **vaporlock** » Mon Sep 22, 2003 5:25 pm

<*Sending out strong mental vibes....Paul, your eyelids are getting heavy. Relax and listen to the sound of my...errr...typing. You are in a deep sleep. When I count to three you will awake and remember nothing. You will have uncontrolable NAOA. Grab a piece of bloodwood and proceed immediately to your lathe. As you lovingly turn the bloodwood, you will think nothing other than 'I bet this vaporlock guy would do a trade.' 1...2...3....*>

So much for the Jedi mind trick.

Anyway, thanks for the great thoughts on my flutes. They are great fun. This is what people who aren't skilled enough to build whistles do!!

Cranberry, I think the minimum wage here in California is somewhere around $15 hour. Then again, a 3 bedroom house is $350k and a cup of coffee cost $5.

Just joking (I think).

Zoob, I've made 4 drones to date. The last one being a two tone drone where the drone actually has a sound hole that you can uncover to raise the drone a 5th. They sound really cool, but mine aren't quite ready for public consumption

Fool (may I call you Fool?), If I understand my books correctly, increasing the bore at the foot increases the theoretical length of the sound chamber, so that wouldn't help you much. I think your best bet may lie in the design of your bird. Does your bird have 'wings'? If you look at the pictures I posted you will notice that the sides of the bird actually extend along the sides of the sound hole. This flattens the flute as a whole, but will make the bell note more stable so that you can blow harder. You might lose some of your 2nd octave, though. Your bore ratio of 25:1 would naturally be quieter and less stable with an easier to reach 2nd octave. The flutes I'm building are pretty much one octave +2 notes with approx 18:1 bores. Someday, though I would like to develop a two octave NA flute. How would you describe the tone of yours?

Anyway, fo rwhat it's worth, here is a sound clip of me on a Gm that I made.
http://www.scubaworldsacto.com/flute4.mp3

Welp, I gotta go clean out the garage so my sife can actually park in there tonight! Cheers,
Eric

Jack · Post by **Jack** » Mon Sep 22, 2003 5:33 pm

Quote @ vaporlock

Cranberry, I think the minimum wage here in California is somewhere around $15 hour. Then again, a 3 bedroom house is $350k and a cup of coffee cost $5. Just joking (I think).

That's...mind boggling to me. I know people who work for $3 or $4 an hour and raise families on it. When I lived by myself last winter my place I rented was $200 a month, and everybody thought that was high, which it was considering I made $5.15 an hour and had 5,000 bills and no hours at work. Growing up, I remember a house we rented costed $30 a month (not 1912, this was in in the 80s/early 90s).

Zubivka · Post by **Zubivka** » Mon Sep 22, 2003 6:14 pm

vaporlock wrote:Zoob, I've made 4 drones to date. The last one being a two tone drone where the drone actually has a sound hole that you can uncover to raise the drone a 5th. They sound really cool, but mine aren't quite ready for public consumption

Way to go! Should I take it with an Gm flute, the drone can sound D, or is it C? There can be interesting effects there, even for "celtic" music. After all, given the range you describe (one octave and a third), a Gm flute will easily play major Bb to Bb, plus one note under--funny how it gets close to the pipers' scale, if you think of it that way...

vaporlock wrote:Does your bird have 'wings'? If you look at the pictures I posted you will notice that the sides of the bird actually extend along the sides of the sound hole. This flattens the flute as a whole, but will make the bell note more stable so that you can blow harder. You might lose some of your 2nd octave, though.

Excellent trick for those whistles which flip up too easily. I've experimented simply with blue-tac around standard whistle windows. The sound does seem more focused, but if the walls are high enough (like on a Copeland) you do flatten by a quarter-tone.
Apparently these "chimney" birds are found on many NA flutes, and by reputed craftsmen.

vaporlock wrote:Anyway, for what it's worth, here is a sound clip of me on a Gm that I made.

It sounds as good as it looks! I understand what you mentioned about reediness, and I like it, too.

This Lakota-style Am is sorely tempting...

Jerry Freeman · Post by **Jerry Freeman** » Mon Sep 22, 2003 7:39 pm

Vaporlock,

That sound is just stunning. Wow.

Best wishes,
Jerry

Monster · Post by **Monster** » Mon Sep 22, 2003 9:44 pm

Jerry Freeman wrote:Vaporlock,

That sound is just stunning. Wow.

Best wishes,
Jerry

Nice playing Vaporlock!

Easily_Deluded_Fool · Mon Sep 22, 2003 11:08 pm

vaporlock wrote:I think your best bet may lie in the design of your bird. Does your bird have 'wings'? If you look at the pictures I posted you will notice that the sides of the bird actually extend along the sides of the sound hole. This flattens the flute as a whole, but will make the bell note more stable so that you can blow harder. You might lose some of your 2nd octave, though. Your bore ratio of 25:1 would naturally be quieter and less stable with an easier to reach 2nd octave. The flutes I'm building are pretty much one octave +2 notes with approx 18:1 bores. Someday, though I would like to develop a two octave NA flute. How would you describe the tone of yours?

Anyway, fo rwhat it's worth, here is a sound clip of me on a Gm that I made.
http://www.scubaworldsacto.com/flute4.mp3

snip
Eric

Thanks for the bird wing tip.
The bird on at the moment is a flat piece of plywood 1/8" thick.
It's only to test the flute! Honest!
So I'll be making something more in keeping with the 'spirit' of the NA system now.

My flutes are more breathy than your mp3 clip.
Wonderful sound. (Written enviously)

My flute pictured in this thread has a full octave + three notes,
then the tone breaks.

After listening to your flute, I think I need to improve my workmanship.

Note to self:

Self! Do not let friend listen to Erics NA Flute mp3

McHaffie · Post by **McHaffie** » Mon Sep 22, 2003 11:43 pm

I didn't take time to read ALL of the replies so if this has already been told then my apologies...

I just took a piece of 2x2 cedar, cut it in half lengthwise, then used a halfcircle router and ran down the center of each half about 3/4 of the way down. Therefore when you put them together you get a nice cylindrical bore eh? lined up and tied the halves together tightly and bored the airway with a 1/4" bit, made the "windway' so to speak with a 1/4" bit and some serious whitling, a flat splint of cedar with a blade whitled onto it (stacked underneath the windway piece) that I simply placed around on a 1/4" "window" until it sounded the way I liked it and glued it into place. Of course, you gotta drill your tone holes.. mine were all the same size .. can you guess?? 1/4"

Sanded it down and rounded the corners in the process.. doesn't look too bad either. I like it. I like his better of course, but I like mine for a first stab. Even had an offer for it once so it can't be too bad!

Sounds purdy darn good. It's only a 5 hole though. Got the disign from a guy here locally who makes 'em. He only charges $65.00 for a completed one, and it only cost me $3.50 and some time.

I explained it more complicated than it is, but in reality... just making the actual windway itself is a bit more detailed than a whistle. Same basis, but definately different for a Native American Flute. The air actually enters in the center, travels up to the top and is directed via a channel over your window and blade, rather than just blowing into the end of it and the air traveling straight to the blade. Depends on the flute and tribe of origin of course, but this is a generalization of the types I've seen and the one I made.

Take care,
John

serpent · Post by **serpent** » Mon Sep 22, 2003 11:54 pm

John, I finally saw and played one of your whistles at the Kansas City Renaissance Festival. What a lovely piece of work!

Folks, McHaffie whistles are definitely back, and they kick ass.

Best to ya, John!

serpent

P.S. I really will make a hoolie! I really will! Really!

P.P.S. Get some damn pictures up on that website, dude! You make a pretty whistle! Show it, f'heaven'ssake!!

lddulcimer · Post by **lddulcimer** » Tue Sep 23, 2003 8:49 am

Vaporlock,

WOW....I think I officially have NAOA now.... Great sound and great playing.

Thanks for sharing.

Zubivka · Post by **Zubivka** » Wed Sep 24, 2003 2:47 am

Funny how NA flutes seem to attract whistlers.

Here's an interesting Renegade flute (perfect for Dance with the Wolves?)

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vi ... gory=10183

Now, supposing it has an acceptable range for ITM, all it may lack would be an extra hole to sound G on the drone...

DCrom · Post by **DCrom** » Wed Sep 24, 2003 10:24 am

Cranberry wrote:Quote @ vaporlock
Cranberry, I think the minimum wage here in California is somewhere around $15 hour. Then again, a 3 bedroom house is $350k and a cup of coffee cost $5. Just joking (I think).
That's...mind boggling to me. I know people who work for $3 or $4 an hour and raise families on it. When I lived by myself last winter my place I rented was $200 a month, and everybody thought that was high, which it was considering I made $5.15 an hour and had 5,000 bills and no hours at work. Growing up, I remember a house we rented costed $30 a month (not 1912, this was in in the 80s/early 90s).

Cran, he's funnin' ya on the minimum wage. I believe that the minimum wage here in California is somewhere around $7 (was $6.75 last I looked, but it may have gone up since.) In more expensive areas, the effective minimum wage is higher - in my neighborhood (middle-to-upper-middle class residential) the fast food places are offering $9-10 to pull the local high school and college kids.

But he's not joking about housing - in the major urban areas, $350K is probably below the median for a 3 br house in a halfway decent area. Rents have slipped a bit from their peak, but if you're earning near-minimum wage you'd best either plan to live like a monk or think about a roommate. Maybe both.

NancyF · Post by **NancyF** » Wed Sep 24, 2003 11:53 am

Here are two pics of my new Rick Sampson F#minor flute. It is redwood with a rosewood bird, split style and is as smooth to the touch as it looks. It is finished with organic oil, flaxseed if i remember right. Its tone is smooth and clear and it is fairly loud. I paid under $200 for a musical instrument pretty enough for display.

The link below is to my whistle album, the flute pics are in it. You have to sign up for image station to view, but it's free, and has been spam free since I started using it last month.

[img]<A%20HREF="http://www.imagestation.com/album/?id=4 ... ER="0"></A>[/img]

Nancy

Chiff and Fipple Forums

Why are "Native American Flutes" so expensive?

Cheating way to do it...

John McHaffie, you are an evil man!`