Learning by ear...do you have this problem?

Redwolf · Post by **Redwolf** » Fri Aug 29, 2003 9:28 am

I'm finding lately that I have a heck of a time learning a tune by ear if I'm used to hearing it in a different key from what's easily playable on my whistle. I particularly notice this with song tunes, since I generally learn to sing them first and, as a low alto, my range doesn't tend to correspond with the keys available on a D whistle. The problem is getting the first several bars of a tune. Sometimes the only way I can get the beginning of a tune is to noodle around until I find a combination from somewhere in the middle, and then work backwards to find the beginning!

Seems like a weird sort of problem to have, as I don't have absolute pitch. Anybody else run into this?

Redwolf

cj · Post by cj » Fri Aug 29, 2003 9:51 am

I don't know if you play keyboard, but it sometimes helps me to play with the tune on a keyboard. If you have one that transposes, all the better. You can pick it out in the key you sing it, get comfy with it, then transpose it however many keys up. Many keyboards also let you save what you play in a midi or other type of file. It doesn't have to be an expensive one that does these things either, a Casio or Radio Shack would do it.

BTW, I envy your low alto, I'm a total soprano with a voice more useful for show tunes and classical, but wish I had a rock/blues/beer voice!

Redwolf · Post by **Redwolf** » Fri Aug 29, 2003 9:59 am

cj wrote: BTW, I envy your low alto, I'm a total soprano with a voice more useful for show tunes and classical, but wish I had a rock/blues/beer voice!

Sadly, my voice isn't much use for the type of singing I do (Anglican choral singing)...the women's parts are much too high for me much of the time, and my choirmaster won't let me sing tenor (last bastion of bigotry...men who can sing in women's ranges are valued, but women who can sing in the men's ranges are considered an unpleasant oddity). Wish I liked jazz/blues/gospel a bit more...those are genres that value a woman with a deep, smoky, voice. Sigh!

I don't have an electronic keyboard, but I do have a piano, so I can give that a try...if I can just stop mentally humming!

Redwolf

cj · Post by cj » Fri Aug 29, 2003 10:41 am

That's ridiculous that that won't let you sing tenor, I've known several women who did. What does he care anyway if you can sing the part? Heck, y'all probably wear choir robes anyhow. . . . :roll:

Maybe I should try more choral singing, but I'd need to make it to church more often! I'll bet the Anglican choral is beautiful.

Too bad we can't switch voices!

Jeferson · Post by **Jeferson** » Fri Aug 29, 2003 10:52 am

Red,
A friend of mine has a voice in the same range as yours. She says that she'll only sing a song if it's in the key of Anne Murray.

Jef

chas · Post by **chas** » Fri Aug 29, 2003 10:54 am

I agree wholeheartedly, Red. Deirdre Havlin plays The Wee Rabbit on a B whistle. To learn it, I had to GET a B whistle, and it somehow still doesn't sound right in D or C or G.

Sopranos, altos, if a singer is good, she's good. I'm always impressed when I hear someone sing in a register she's not normally in. Every so often, Maddy Prior hits a really low note and I say, "I can't believe she can sing so low." My wife always replies that she (an alto) is always impressed by how high Maddy can go. (We named our younger kitten Maddy, because her voice is high and strong.)

kevin m. · Post by **kevin m.** » Fri Aug 29, 2003 11:16 am

chas wrote:Sopranos, altos, if a singer is good, she's good. I'm always impressed when I hear someone sing in a register she's not normally in. Every so often, Maddy Prior hits a really low note and I say, "I can't believe she can sing so low."

June Tabor's voice has the same effect on me-WOW

Her low notes make my hair stand on end!

Redwolf · Post by **Redwolf** » Fri Aug 29, 2003 11:26 am

cj wrote:That's ridiculous that that won't let you sing tenor, I've known several women who did. What does he care anyway if you can sing the part? Heck, y'all probably wear choir robes anyhow. . . . :roll:

Maybe I should try more choral singing, but I'd need to make it to church more often! I'll bet the Anglican choral is beautiful.

Too bad we can't switch voices!

Well, there is definitely a difference in timbre between men's and women's voices, regardless of range. The thing that irritates me is that men who can sing in the women's ranges are actually considered an asset...their timbre is considered "superior" to the natural timbre of a female soprano or contralto. On the other hand, the timbre of a woman's voice is considered "inferior," particularly if she's singing a "male" part.

It's a prejudice that comes from the hundreds of years when women weren't allowed to sing in public in Europe and England...people got used to the sound of men and boy choirs and decided that was the "gold standard." Even today, you'll find people who much prefer all-male choirs to mixed choirs because that's what they've been trained to think of as perfection. Choirmasters get very excited if they discover a "counter-tenor," which is basically a man who can sing first alto. As I see it, however, it's all just snobbery...and I MUCH prefer mixed choirs!

I'm glad to learn I'm not the only one with the "ear" problem! It was driving me crazy yesterday...the tune I wanted to learn was a really simple one, but I just couldn't get the starting measures at all!

Redwolf

lddulcimer · Post by **lddulcimer** » Fri Aug 29, 2003 11:30 am

That is a shame. IMHO..there is never enough singing in the world. Men..women...mixed...who cares ! We just need more music all the way around!

In church music, I am a firm believer is using the gifts, talents, voices and instruments that God brings your way. No matter what the combination, you can do wonderful things with what you have if you try. Hopefully someday that prejudice will go away.....

Wombat · Post by **Wombat** » Fri Aug 29, 2003 11:52 am

kevin m. wrote:
chas wrote:Sopranos, altos, if a singer is good, she's good. I'm always impressed when I hear someone sing in a register she's not normally in. Every so often, Maddy Prior hits a really low note and I say, "I can't believe she can sing so low."
June Tabor's voice has the same effect on me-WOW Her low notes make my hair stand on end!

Exactly. And June Tabor has a baritone.

I believe she had trouble getting a gig in her school choir. No problem. Just become the best singer of traditional English song of your generation. Now that's what I call a good career move.

cj · Post by cj » Fri Aug 29, 2003 12:02 pm

Redwolf wrote:

Posted: Fri Aug 29, 2003 5:26 pm Post subject:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

cj wrote:
That's ridiculous that that won't let you sing tenor, I've known several women who did. What does he care anyway if you can sing the part? Heck, y'all probably wear choir robes anyhow. . . .

Maybe I should try more choral singing, but I'd need to make it to church more often! I'll bet the Anglican choral is beautiful.

Too bad we can't switch voices!

Well, there is definitely a difference in timbre between men's and women's voices, regardless of range. The thing that irritates me is that men who can sing in the women's ranges are actually considered an asset...their timbre is considered "superior" to the natural timbre of a female soprano or contralto. On the other hand, the timbre of a woman's voice is considered "inferior," particularly if she's singing a "male" part.

It's a prejudice that comes from the hundreds of years when women weren't allowed to sing in public in Europe and England...people got used to the sound of men and boy choirs and decided that was the "gold standard." Even today, you'll find people who much prefer all-male choirs to mixed choirs because that's what they've been trained to think of as perfection. Choirmasters get very excited if they discover a "counter-tenor," which is basically a man who can sing first alto. As I see it, however, it's all just snobbery...and I MUCH prefer mixed choirs!

Sounds like, if your choirmaster had his way, all the male singers would be castrati!! (Ouch) Seriously, though, the thing I enjoyed most when singing in choirs was the different textures and flavors of all kinds of voices. Church choir is one place where anyone should be able to sing, regardless of ability, and sing any part that fits their voice. It's worship, not a place for snobbery. And the male superiority thing is so tired. :roll:

It's always been funny to me that musical genres get an fixated on an ideal, such as women in rock/blues/jazz CAN'T sing high, even though lyric soprano is the most common type of female voice. Or that the male voice is superior in choral singing, esp. when they are counter-tenor (as few are, your average, basic, non-castrati guy is a baritone). Music is creative and dynamic. Fortunately creativity usually wins out, and some people redefine a genre to match them rather than conform to it, such as Heart (sopranos that rock) did for up-to-then male-dominated rock back in the 70s. Anglican choral singing, however, would be a tough nut to crack since many in that genre, from what you say, seem to be stodgy purists.

And ldulcimer is right, more music all around is what we need!

BrassBlower · Post by **BrassBlower** » Fri Aug 29, 2003 12:14 pm

chas wrote:Every so often, Maddy Prior hits a really low note and I say, "I can't believe she can sing so low."

Another female vocalist who can really dive for those lows is Maire Brennan of Clannad.

Of course, being a Clan-and-Span-fan makes me a little biased!

Blackbeer · Post by **Blackbeer** » Fri Aug 29, 2003 12:52 pm

Ya know Redwolf I learn all my tunes by ear except for a few I had whistle tab for and I sometimes have the same problem. I find that once a tune is in my head it stays there and if I am having trouble getting it to come out of my whistel I just leave it alone for a while. I am always doodiling around with a whistle or a flute and more often then not I will stumble across the notes in that tune. I guess I just don`t force myself to get it if I don`t get it in an hour or so. Yes it often takes a long long time to come up with the tune but heck I don`t have any time limits on learning new tune anyway. Yesterday I was doodling around with my flute and came up with a couple of old jazz tunes from the 30`s I think. They just poped out and then I started working on them. So doodeling is a good thing. Take care

Tom

lixnaw · Post by **lixnaw** » Fri Aug 29, 2003 12:57 pm

my voice is pitched in D, i don't think it's wise for me to sing in any other key, and i can't do it either.the only singing i do is sean-nos in the english language. if the tune is pitched in other keys, then i just put it in to D.
i do the same with whistle tunes, execpt for my low G whistle, i like her size, but i'll never sing anything in G

TelegramSam · Post by **TelegramSam** » Fri Aug 29, 2003 1:26 pm

Well be glad you can sing at all. I have a range of *maybe* one octave, and that's on a good day.

Personally, I find a strong male voice much more enjoyable than a female voice of any type, but that's just sheer opinion and more a result of a sort of being instinctually drawn to it, not because I think one is superior to the other. It all comes down to tastes. To prevent you from singing a proper part is ridiculous. In a large choir it's not like anybody's going to know the difference as long as you're singing in key and not doing a solo (and even then, as long as you're a good singer it shouldn't make a difference). Some people are just very silly.