Here's what I think of irish musicians...

[Kar]

Well, this is sort of a silly comment from a minor point from the original post...but I just got back from Ireland and I did see a few Susatos. One guy was playing one busking at the Cliffs of Moher and I can tell you, it was nice to be able to wander rather faraway from the main "tourist spot" and still be able to hear the lovely whistle music drifting faintly from, it seemed, the ether. I'm sure my Dixon would not have carried so far....

[Martin Milner]

Well, this is sort of a silly comment from a minor point from the original post...but I just got back from Ireland and I did see a few Susatos. One guy was playing one busking at the Cliffs of Moher and I can tell you, it was nice to be able to wander rather faraway from the main "tourist spot" and still be able to hear the lovely whistle music drifting faintly from, it seemed, the ether. I'm sure my Dixon would not have carried so far....

You must've been in the depths of the Ailwee Caves while he was still at the cliffs....

[Azalin]

Gee, Martin, you really want to give me a heart attack don't ya? This thread resurrected so many memories, oh my! That "irish fiddler I've met" is in fact my ex-girlfriend, which somehow, somewhere, I still love.

I still think that Steve Power doesnt have a clue about irish music, that hasnt changed!

For the rest, well you know, I was young, still had dreams... I love to know the title of the tunes I play, and love to know the key in which I'm playing them, which is quite the opposite of what I admired in some musicians in Ireland, but hey, I'm not one of them!

Thanks for the resurrection, oh my!

[kkrell]

...I wonder how well the Afro-Celt Sound System...would go over in the average rural Irish pub or tavern. All these fall under the rubric of "Celtic", but are far from traditional.

I'd suspect that the Afro Celts (new name) aren't as popular in those sort of venues. However, I've been talking to a lot of traditional flute players lately in the course of WFO2, and there seems to be considerable respect for Emer Mayock's talents. Perhaps this is for her solo efforts and performances on flute, pipes, whistle & fiddle. I would say, though, that her music under those circumstances encompasses both traditional music and something beyond, yet obviously well-played and enjoyable.

Kevin Krell

[MurphyStout]

Hey Martin, is it me or has Azalin's accent actually gotten worse since he started this thread?

ps, I learned 2 polkas today, just for you Az.

[Azalin]

Murphy,

You should see a councellor or something, about this polka issue of yours... By the way, got the CD sent to Marcus. I'm leaving for about 10 days but will ship a copy of the CD when I'm back, just send me your mailing address please... See ya soon dude!

[E = Fb]

quote: It's also in the irish character to pull the leg of Americans and encourage, to a certain extent, a romantic view irish life that enriches their tourism.

Hey, Martin, did you ever get that right. My younger brother was in a pub once with his mate. There were German tourists who had a tape recorder, taping the sessions. All of a sudden my brother's friend broke into song. It was what we call a "come-all-ya"....an accapella dirge. The tunes of these things are like the blues...all sound the same. What was funny is that he sang in Irish Gaelic, and just make up lines as he went. Since his Irish vocab was weak he used stuff from school, like: "I'm sorry I'm late for school, sir" or "Please may I go to the toilet". The Germans were taping with great interest. My broather had to get to the bathroom in a hurry to keep from having an accident from holding in his laughter.

[Wombat]

Great thread to revive. Thanks Martin.

I think the romanticism about musical ignorance is actually nurtured by a logical fallacy, not that I would accuse anyone here of committing it.
From the fact that, in a certain context, ignorance is not a vice, in this case the ignorance of a folk musician of musical theory, we are tempted to conclude that it must therefore be a virtue. That inference is fallacious. Musical ignorance is never a virtue but, if you are lucky, you might get away with not knowing what key you are in. But you have to be lucky. If you find yourself wanting to play with somene who prefers another key, they have to adapt to you because you can't adapt to them. Where's the virture in that?

[cj]

I agree that there is probably some leg-pulling of tourists going on and that the musical ignorance thing isn't true in many cases. I know some professional bluegrass musicians, which is supposedly another type of music that people think the musicians just play and live from their hearts or whatever but is really quite technical as well, and they most assuredly DO know and discuss the names of the tunes, what key they're playing one in, and which chords they're based on. They even learn (gasp) scales! Granted that if someone grows up learning a type of trad music (whether it be Irish, bluegrass, Cajun, or any other) and depending on talent level, they may not have to think as much about those things as others.

So unless you're (a) oozing talent where you can pick up anything easily, or (b) learned via osmosis from your parents/grandparents/family from the womb forward, chances are you'll need to put some thought in the technical aspects. I suppose the key is balancing the technical and the from-your-heart aspects. It also depends on how you learn best--some folks are visual, and others are auditory learners. Myself, I need all the help I can get! And, in my typical American way, I enjoy the emergence of newer whistles and materials, narrow bores, and improvements on the craft of instrument-making (a talent in and of itself). So I'll be among those unapologetically discussing instruments, tunes, and technique on this board also.

[RonKiley]

An example of the bluegrass musicians with some training is the late John Duffy of the Seldom Scene. His father was an opera singer. John was trained from early childhood in classical violin and opera. He had a vocal range of 4 octaves. He discovered bluegrass and the mandolin and that was his new love.

Ron

[cj]

Ron's right--not all bluegrass musicians grew up in Appalachia or learned by ear. And I'd bet that even Mary Bergin and Joanie Madden had to work on technique at some point.

This same discussion goes on in the mandolin discussion groups--whether bluegrass is inherently purer, whether sheet music is evil vs. ear-learning, whether classical training handicaps you in learning trad, and whether Nickel Creek is b@$tardizing bluegrass, etc. etc. There's nothing new here or unique to this particular instrument.

I agree with Wombat, this is a romantic view which doesn't always reflect reality.

[Cayden]

If you find yourself wanting to play with somene who prefers another key, they have to adapt to you because you can't adapt to them. Where's the virture in that?

Recently Caoiminh O Raghaillaigh told me a little story about Denis Murphy who was asked in what key he played a particular tune. 'Ah, I wouldn't know I suppose it must be a class of a C' was the reply. He just didn't know, but I bet you he could have played in any key.

I think you'll find that a lot of traditional musicians know exactly what their music is about even if they don't have a clue about the terminology of music theory. And in a lot of cases you may also find the good musicians are very adaptable. It's a mistake to interpret a lack of terminology or formal [musical] education as ignorance.

[avanutria]

I think it was Mary MacNamera who told us a story about her father playing concertina...he didn't know what the notes were called so he gave all the buttons numbers and learned tunes that way.

Later on in life, when Mary was playing and teaching tunes, he wanted her to teach him some new ones, but he wanted to make her learn his number system rather than use the note names in teaching.

[Wombat]

If you find yourself wanting to play with somene who prefers another key, they have to adapt to you because you can't adapt to them. Where's the virture in that?

Recently Caoiminh O Raghaillaigh told me a little story about Denis Murphy who was asked in what key he played a particular tune. 'Ah, I wouldn't know I suppose it must be a class of a C' was the reply. He just didn't know, but I bet you he could have played in any key.

I think you'll find that a lot of traditional musicians know exactly what their music is about even if they don't have a clue about the terminology of music theory. And in a lot of cases you may also find the good musicians are very adaptable. It's a mistake to interpret a lack of terminology or formal [musical] education as ignorance.

Precisely. I certainly wasn't making the mistake of confusing terminological ignorance with substantive ignorance. But, then again, I wouldn't respond with romantic incredulity to wonderful musicians whose ignorance was merely a matter of terminology. Of course I respond with wonder to great folk musicians whose playing is incredible, as we all do, but I am amazed at what they know and can do; it's not amazement at what they don't know. I think that terminological ignorance and leg-pulling account for the vast majority of tall stories about virtuoso know-nothings.

Terminological ignorance is still a limitation but it is so minor as to be inconsequential. Making good the deficiency is a little bit like making the transition from a Mac to a PC—annoying and time consuming but not really difficult unless one is very advanced in age and set in one's ways.

What I object to is the lionisation of genuine musical ignorance—a particularly pernicious and patronising form of the noble savage myth in my opinion.

[cowtime]

Ron's right--not all bluegrass musicians grew up in Appalachia or learned by ear. And I'd bet that even Mary Bergin and Joanie Madden had to work on technique at some point.

This same discussion goes on in the mandolin discussion groups--whether bluegrass is inherently purer, whether sheet music is evil vs. ear-learning, whether classical training handicaps you in learning trad, and whether Nickel Creek is b@$tardizing bluegrass, etc. etc. There's nothing new here or unique to this particular instrument.

I agree with Wombat, this is a romantic view which doesn't always reflect reality.

Several of ya'll are mentioning bluegrass. I've got a question. Do you mean bluegrass or old time? And, how long does a music form have to be around before it earns the label - Traditional?

The reason I'm asking is that IMOH bluegrass has not been around long enough to be labeled "traditional". Heck, isn't Bill Monroe labeled as the father of bluegrass? I did grow up in Appalachia, did learn it by ear. I don't mean to imply that this is better than some other way of learning it. But, it sure helps when you don't have to worry about how phrasing is done in a particular tune, accents, etc. because you've heard it soooo much.I do like bluegrass, but it's not our traditional music in my neck of the woods.
Oh, and I like Nickle Creek too. I don't care if it's not your usual bluegrass, it's good music.

Now, old time, yeah, that's trad.

This has been an intresting discussion. I agree, that many trad players- regardless of the trad- are great musicians- they may not have the correct terms, or be able to write scores on paper- but they can sure do what counts- play their music!