Susato!

peeplj · Post by **peeplj** » Sun Jul 27, 2003 7:31 pm

I believe I am correct in saying that all plastics are by definition polymers.

Any chemists wanna weigh in on this?

--James

jim_mc · Post by **jim_mc** » Sun Jul 27, 2003 8:34 pm

Just checking in to add my voice to the chorus of those praising Dixon whistles. I was an anti-plastic guy until I met my first Dixon. Now I'm playing plastic and loving it! I'm also loving my new half-plastic whistle: a Hoover Whitecap on a Feadog body.

Susato whistles seem to polarize the crowd. I'm on the south pole.

FJohnSharp · Post by **FJohnSharp** » Sun Jul 27, 2003 9:15 pm

I have a Kildare and I like it plenty. I find it too loud for personal practicing or lesson, but it has a good strong sound and is in tune. the upper half of the second octave can be ear splitting, but I find that wiht practice it can be mastered.

Mine is black too.

E = Fb · Post by **E = Fb** » Sun Jul 27, 2003 9:21 pm

Most plastics are polymers. I'm not aware of a plastic that is not a polymer.

Susato's are LOUD, and very much in tune with themselves. Perfect for sessions, especially where there is more than one fiddle. I never practice at home with one because they get on my nerves. It has an odd sound...buzzy. In a session I find that using a Susato makes me pay more attention to my playing because I know I can be heard. They are also good for learing by ear because the tuning is so accurrate.

Tom.

peeplj · Post by **peeplj** » Sun Jul 27, 2003 10:53 pm

Susatos are loud, but they are not the loudest whistles. The loudest whistle I personally own is the Cronnolly, but Serpent tells me he can make a whistle that'll give it more than a run for its money.

Actually, the Syn is almost as loud as the Susato, as is the Mello D and even one of my Generation D's (the bluetop). I don't think it's just the volume that some people find objectionable. My personal theory is that folks who are used to playing Gens and Waltons, etc, are not used to doing anything to hit the upper octave on the whistle except to blow harder, and on the Susato it will shriek if you do that. You also have to compensate with your lips and mouth / throat muscles, in much the same way that advanced recorder players control volume.

After you get used to this, I think you play all whistles better.

In fact, my experience has been that every new instrument I get improves my playing on all my instruments.

I think the biggest irony here is that if Susato whistles cost about a hundred more than they do, folks would sing their praises left and right. The fact is lots of players get this whistle before they are really ready, and then blame the whistle. If this whistle were expensive, I think the more advanced players would mostly be buying them, and they would know to take the time to learn the whistle's personality before laying it down and giving up on it.

--James

Henke · Post by **Henke** » Mon Jul 28, 2003 5:48 am

About this polymer/plastic thing. I'm not a chemist but I do think there are some difference in polymer and plastic. By deffenition, Tony Dixon said that only his 3pc flutes were made of a polymer (delrin) and his 2pc, 1pc flutes and all the whistles were made of a plastic (ABS). There has also been discussions on the flute forum wether M&E flutes are really made of polymer or plastic. Most people seem to think that there are some difference, even the makers. And pardon me for trusting the whistle smiths more than I trust E=Fb. I have a hard time respecting his opinions after his attack on Phil Hardy (one of the nicest men on this earth) for charing his own cd's, free of charge.
Just my 2 cents.

Cheers

Wombat · Post by **Wombat** » Mon Jul 28, 2003 6:23 am

I find it hard to know whether or not to recommend Susatos. For me, they occupy an uncomfortable position between high-end and cheap whistles. If you are going to buy several whistles, then I would suggest trying Susato at some point. Some people want something easily affordable but more reliably in tune and playable than an untweaked cheapie. Susato and Dixon seem to be in direct competion for this market and I've never played a Dixon. If this is what you want, then a Susato will be as reliable as a high-end whistle, even if a bit lacking in character.

For others, like me, Susatos were a very brief stopping point on the road from cheap to high end whistles. I bought several Susatos to cover certain keys while I was waiting for Bernard Overton to build me whistles in those keys. I don't regret the purchases and I still play them from time to time, but really I haven't got anything like the use out of them that I would expect. In other words, if you think you will be going on to high-end whistles fairly soon, perhaps you should just wait a bit and get something with a bit more character. Once the Overtons arrived, my interest in cheap and mid-priced whistles waned straight away. My interest in acquiring other high-end whistles continues unchecked.

Jerry Freeman · Post by **Jerry Freeman** » Mon Jul 28, 2003 6:36 am

"Polymer" is substituted when someone doesn't want to use the word "plastic." It's my understanding that all plastics are polymers. It doesn't sound good to say, "Tony Dixon plastic flute," so we say, Tony Dixon polymer flute."

"A molecule of high molecular weight derived by the addition of many smaller molecules of the same kind."

WhistlingGypsy · Post by **WhistlingGypsy** » Mon Jul 28, 2003 6:47 am

I have to vote on the side of the Susato here.

I didn't used to like them ~ for no obvious reason other than I owned a Susato Low D, which I didn't like, and therefore thought all Susatos were the same. However, after seeing one of my favourite players, Sean Ryan in Ireland, playing on a Susato, I went right out and bought one. I have played it almost exclusively since, selling my Burke Al Pro D and relegating my Dixons and Generations into 2nd and 3rd place. It is ideal for a loud session, holding its own with all other instruments.

Great volume, in tune, a little shrieky in the upper 2nd octave (but as already mentioned can be mastered). For the price you wont beat it.

Azalin · Post by **Azalin** » Mon Jul 28, 2003 7:17 am

WhistlingGypsy wrote:It is ideal for a loud session, holding its own with all other instruments.

The problem with this is that most Susato players will end up playing their Susato all the time, without respect for their actual surrounding. I was myself playing a Susato at the Willie week festival, but that was because people around were talking, session was more than loud, and I couldnt have heard myself without it.

In Montreal we have a small session on saturday in an almost empty room, and even if there's 2 fiddle players and 2 flutes, a whistle like a generation can be heard. Now, if you add a box and a pipe, that's another story.

I just think some musicians arent sensitive enough and they just want to be heard as much as they can, no matter if it spoils the volume balance a whistle should have in a session. Also, I don't think Susato "holds it's own" against a fiddle or a flute, it's more than than, it's just too loud compared to them.

Martin Milner · Post by **Martin Milner** » Mon Jul 28, 2003 7:28 am

Henke wrote:About this polymer/plastic thing. I'm not a chemist but I do think there are some difference in polymer and plastic. By definition, Tony Dixon said that only his 3pc flutes were made of a polymer (delrin) and his 2pc, 1pc flutes and all the whistles were made of a plastic (ABS).
Cheers

There is a difference, this site gives a good explanation.

http://www.psrc.usm.edu/macrog/plastic.htm

In short, (if I've understood it right) polymers are subdivided into plastics and elastomers. Plastics will not return to their original shape after stretching, elastomers will. ABS is a plastic, but Nylon is an elastomer, but both are polymers. In the case of whistles, as we rarely see whistles that can be bent in half & return to their original form, I would say the terms are interchangeable.

Delrin is a specific trade name.

On the original subject of Susatos, some people think they are too loud for session use. A whistle carries better in a session than you might think, being an octave higher than anything else being played (except another whistle). You may have trouble hearing yourself, but others don't!

There is a very small bore Susato (VSB) which is quieter, and of course the extra large bore, Bloomfield.

peeplj · Post by **peeplj** » Mon Jul 28, 2003 8:01 am

Azalin, you make good points.

The exact reason you give is why I like to have many whistles of different types as opposed to just always playing one favorite whistle.

In a small quiet indoor session, an Oak or a Gen may be more appropriate, but generally for performing outside or in a larger group I want something with more volume; i.e. Syn, Susato, Cronnolly, Mello-D.

There is no whistle I have ever played which will hold its own in volume one on one with a flute, though. If you've ever listened to the old recording of my session playing "The Arran Boat," you've heard me play my old German flute against a Susato D--and you've heard me pull back on the flute about as much as I can to balance the whistle. Even a German flute, one-on-one, will easily overpower a Susato. With my Hammy, if I want to overpower damn near anything, it's not that hard...but overpowering anybody is never my goal when we play. And on flute, unless we have a very large session going, I usually find myself playing at what I consider about an "mf" volume, not soft, but with plenty of room to get much louder.

--James

Bloomfield · Post by **Bloomfield** » Mon Jul 28, 2003 8:09 am

A couple of words on Susatos.

First, the do sound like recorders. They have the hrrrrng in the tone that is very recorderish.

Second, they are hard whistles to play for a beginner. The need quite a bit of breath and much breath control, because you will be blowing much harder in the upper octave than in the lower. Also, they are finnicky when it comes to fingering, and (for example) won't tolerate a xoo oox for a high B. [note: this applies to the SB (standard) soprano D, not the VSB D.]

Third, they improve amazingly if cut out the curved blade and replace it with a straight blade made from polymer (a guitar pic).

Cayden · Post by **Cayden** » Mon Jul 28, 2003 8:17 am

Azalin wrote:[I was myself playing a Susato at the Willie week festival, but that was because people around were talking, session was more than loud, and I couldnt have heard myself without it.

on at least one occasion people were only talking about the fact they wished you'd play one of your other whistles

And rule one for me is, if I can't hear myself in a session the sesion is either too big or the punters too loud and I am out of there. If everybody would stick to that, the world would be a better place.

I also think it's a misunderstanding that flute and whistle don't mix, they do but the whistle is maybe not as loud but then who said it should be 'to hold it's own', instruments have their own particular character which often makes for a particualr pleasant mix with other instruments. In my experience loud whistles [or overly loud pipes or anything else trying to be louder than the rest] almost by definition upset [and ruin] the blend of a group of instruments.
Last night we were playing, accordeon, concertina, flute and guitar with two american visitors occasionally joining on fiddles and not for a second I felt my whistle should have been louder than it was.

Azalin · Post by **Azalin** » Mon Jul 28, 2003 8:26 am

peeplj wrote:There is no whistle I have ever played which will hold its own in volume one on one with a flute, though.

Well maybe it all comes down to a matter of taste. Even though I love whistle, I think that because it plays in the upper octaves it doesnt require as much "volume" as other instruments to be heard and be present in a session. The whistle is an instrument which volume you don't want to "abuse", because of it's high frequency. I don't think I could stand listening to a loud Susato very long, but I could go on forever listening to a loud flute. This is why I think the Susato "overpowers" any flute. Maybe not in volume, but the end result is that the Susato might get on my nerves faster.