Excellent digital recorder for "tune grabbing"

eskin · Post by **eskin** » Thu Jun 19, 2003 12:39 pm

For a long time, I've been very interested in how to use the best technology has to offer to help me develop my playing skills and accelerate my progress as a traditional musician. As I've found products that provide a real benefit, I've enthusiastically promoted them to my students and fellow session players.

For a couple of years, along with Minidisc, I've been using digital voice recorders from Sony, Panasonic, and Pogo products to quickly grab tunes in sessions, record demonstrations in workshops, etc.

While the quality of these devices has ranged from mediocre to extremely good, the convenience of "instant-on" operation, very small size, and long battery life more than makes up for lack of CD-quality fidelity. Mostly I'm looking to capture the setting of a tune, so I can work it out when I get home.

Yesterday, I bought what I think is probably the best overall digital recorder for this purpose, the Sony ICD-ST10:

http://www.jandr.com/JRProductPage.proc ... Id=3693363

This very small recorder distinguishes itself by doing stereo recordings (ST mode) up to 45 minutes, and very high quality mono recordings (SP mode) up to 141 minutes. The lowest quality setting (LP mode) give nearly 4 hours, but is really only useful for voice. It has a built-in speaker and stereo microphone, and with Sony's latest LPEC audio codec, provides extremely high quality audio. Using its USB interface and supplied Sony software, transferring the recordings to the PC and converting to .WAV format is extremely fast and simple.

Since it also has a stereo plug-in power microphone jack, with high, medium, and low sensitivity levels, you can use all of the same microphones typically used for Minidisc recording to make even higher quality recordings. The microphone I'm using most is the Sony ECM-DS70P

http://www.jandr.com/JRProductPage.proc ... showcase=t

In the photo on the J&R website, its hard to see, but the cord detaches right at the microphone and its possible to just plug the mike head right into the recorder without the cord.

Another feature of this unit is the ability to instantly slow down the recording playback up to 50% without shifting the pitch, while maintaining very high quality. This alone is enough to make this unit the one of choice for traditional players.

I'm extremely pleased with this unit, and at $149.95 MSRP, it is very reasonably priced for the feature set. For about double the price, you can get the Sony ICD-MS515 that uses memory sticks for unlimited recording time, but doesn't support the stereo recording function. Sony has also announce the ICD-ST20 version with double the memory, but its only for sale in Japan at this time.

I'll still use a Minidisc recorder when I need near CD-quality recordings of concerts or long classes, but for grabbing tunes in sessions or at a festival, the latest in digital recorders offer amazing versatility.

Cheers,

Michael Eskin
http://www.michaeleskin.com

Flyingcursor · Post by **Flyingcursor** » Thu Jun 19, 2003 1:23 pm

What a great little gizmo. I may have to get one. I just got a little Sony tape voice recorder. It is horrible. It records OK but when it plays back it's too fast. It raises my whistles at least an octave.

Thanks for the tip.

chas · Post by **chas** » Thu Jun 19, 2003 1:31 pm

Is there a Mac version of the transfer software that comes with it?

eskin · Post by **eskin** » Thu Jun 19, 2003 1:57 pm

Apparently not... sorry...

Tom Dowling · Post by **Tom Dowling** » Thu Jun 19, 2003 2:00 pm

Thanks for the 'heads up'. I work about a block from the NYC branch of J & R and have this gift certificate that's just burning a hole in my pocket!

Be well,

Tom D.

glauber · Post by **glauber** » Thu Jun 19, 2003 2:25 pm

What's the file format: MP3? Something else? What's the bitrate and MP3 (or something else) quality?

eskin · Post by **eskin** » Thu Jun 19, 2003 5:13 pm

Nope, its not MP3, its Sony's own proprietary LPEC codec, but the supplied software will convert it to .WAV at various bitrates. Looking at the file sizes produced, its about 48 kbit/sec for the stereo files, 16 kbit/sec for the mono files. However, this isn't MP3, and its a codec optimized for voice range sounds, so we're not comparing apples to apples here.

I'd be happy to email a sample of both the mono and stereo recording capability if anyone is interested. Bottom line is its good enough to clearly capture a setting of a tune in a moderately loud environment, such as a pub.

Cheers,

Michael

glauber · Post by **glauber** » Thu Jun 19, 2003 5:17 pm

You're right, you can't compare with MP3, but we're probably talking med-fi here, not hi-fi. Still, maybe better than the old cassette recorder. I recently had a disappointing experience looking for high-fi MP3/WAV recorders. I still think they're a good idea, but the one in the market art not mature yet.

Thanks,

g

Hiro Ringo · Post by **Hiro Ringo** » Thu Jun 19, 2003 5:33 pm

For someone who might get interested in this.:all-in mp3/wave recorder with internal condenser stereo microphone(by YAMAHA).The details are below in PDF format.

http://www.mp3rec.com/dl_data/SH01_EManual.pdf

And to see the size

http://www.geocities.co.jp/Hollywood/86 ... ersize.JPG

P.S.I am not sure whether this gizmo is available in U.S. But available in Japan only via internet. I hear even some orchestras use this in their rehearsals.

P.S.2 This recorder is basically used in mixing recordings so it can not be shrinked more(according to what I heard from Yamaha).

Chadd · Post by **Chadd** » Thu Jun 19, 2003 6:14 pm

Has anyone found a similar recorder that can transfer files to a Mac?

eskin · Post by **eskin** » Thu Jun 19, 2003 8:14 pm

That SoundSketcher from Yamaha looks like a nice portable recorder. Now if they could shrink it down so it fits in your pocket...

Chadd · Post by **Chadd** » Fri Jun 20, 2003 12:21 pm

After poking around online, it appears that the only DVR option in the same price range for Mac users is the Olympus DS-330. Unfortunately, it doesn't have the stereo recording ability that the Sony ICD-ST10has. Looking at the specs, it would also seem to have a much lower recording quality. Has anyone out there used one for tune-grabbing? If so, is the sound quality adequate?

eskin · Post by **eskin** » Mon Jun 23, 2003 12:03 am

Here's some examples of recordings I took during sessions/classes with the Sony unit this weekend at the annual Summer Solstice music festival in Calabasas, CA:

http://www.uptospeed.net/mp3/eskin/that_jig.mp3
http://www.uptospeed.net/mp3/eskin/that_reel.mp3
http://www.uptospeed.net/mp3/eskin/trip ... e_well.mp3
http://www.uptospeed.net/mp3/eskin/barn_dance.mp3

These were all using the external plug-in T style stereo microphone. The recordings were transferred in their original Sony LPEC format, converted by the Sony software to .WAV stereo 16-bit 44.1 KHz, and then to 64 kbit .mp3.

Cheers,

Michael

dgardner · Post by **dgardner** » Mon Jun 23, 2003 7:58 pm

several questions
1) does the software come with it? 2)how much space on the hard drive does "recorder full" take up?
3)how long does the conversion to wav take?
4) do you take your laptop with you and dump onto it every hour of recording...and how long does that take? thanks dg

eskin · Post by **eskin** » Tue Jun 24, 2003 8:03 am

1) Yes the software comes with it.

2) I'm not sure on the raw recorder format, but its something like 48 kb/sec LPEC, so 45 minutes of stereo would be about 16 MB. Of course if you upconvert to raw .WAV, that will depend on the converted format.

3) Its very fast on USB, and the conversion speed is very fast.

4) Yes, you could dump the recorder to a laptop if necessary. I hear that Sony sells an ST20 version that has double the memory, but its not available in the US yet.