The flute and Irish history

[Mr.Gumby]

Bigsciota pretty much has it when he says the music we play today is pretty much a 19th century form. It is probably good to remember not all parts of the country were equally affected by the famine, it struck certain poor areas very hard but others, not so much (I drove by old Shanakyle in the last hour, as a reminder of that).
If you look at the article I linked earlier, professional pipemaking as it existed basically ceased by the 1860s. The famine was the great disruptor there. But that wasn't the only disruption to occur, between the Free state and the Church and the Dance Hall act they imposed on the country, another big silence fell over traditional music, it went undergound, became the Hidden Ireland, until it started re-emerging from the 1950s onward. It is safe to say the tradition hung on in the poor parts of the country during the first part of the 20th century, the marginal lands of Sliabh Luachra, Clare, the backarse of Donegal and the dark heart of Ard Mhór and Carna that sustained Connemara sean nós tradition etc.

[david_h]

Ireland changed a lot after 1798 as An Seanduine posted. Politically a lot changes and demographically there was a remarkable population boom, and the mass poverty.

From a quick look at Wikipedia (has pages on demographics for several countries) the population of Ireland roughly doubled in the 50 years before the famine. The population of England also doubled in that period. In both the growth was roughly linear and it continued that way in England. Looking at the graphs it's the famine that was 'remarkable'. In simple terms there was an agricultural revolution in Europe with improved nutrition giving increases in fertility, survival in childhood and adult life expectancy. All of which remained appalling by modern standards even before the famine. Life for the poor people Ireland may have been squalid in a different way to in other countries but in terms of getting children to breeding age it doesn't look that different. Until the famine.

[PB+J]

Ireland changed a lot after 1798 as An Seanduine posted. Politically a lot changes and demographically there was a remarkable population boom, and the mass poverty.

From a quick look at Wikipedia (has pages on demographics for several countries) the population of Ireland roughly doubled in the 50 years before the famine. The population of England also doubled in that period. In both the growth was roughly linear and it continued that way in England. Looking at the graphs it's the famine that was 'remarkable'. In simple terms there was an agricultural revolution in Europe with improved nutrition giving increases in fertility, survival in childhood and adult life expectancy. All of which remained appalling by modern standards even before the famine. Life for the poor people Ireland may have been squalid in a different way to in other countries but in terms of getting children to breeding age it doesn't look that different. Until the famine.

Right the difference is in Ireland its done without the benefits of industrialization, and it's done with an accompanying level of poverty that's astonishing and should have been impossible, given the subdivision of tenant plots. It was common, before the famine, to ask why Ireland was so poor. It was a constant subject of debate in England. For example De Toqueville quotes this conversation between Nassau Senior and John Revans as part of commission investigating the operations of the Poor Law in Ireland. Senior is giving the answer

"Q. Is it true the Irish landlords squeeze the agricultural population to the extent of almost depriving them of their means of living?
A. Yes. We have here all the evils of an aristocracy without any of its advantages. There is no moral tie between the poor and the rich. The difference of political opinion and religious
belief, of race, [and in) the standard of living, render them strangers, one could almost say enemies. The rich Irish land-lords extract from their estates all that they can yield. They profit by the competition created by the poverty, and when they have thus amassed immense sums of money, they go to spend them abroad."

[david_h]

What I don't understand is how the population in Ireland increased in number at the same rate as in England if it was all so much poorer. Was it the poorest of the poor in Ireland (especially smallholder farmers with over-divided plots) who's bad state was remarkable? Were there other working people who were more ordinarily poor who could afford a flute?

Was it all smallholder subsistence farming? Were there larger farms with hired labour as had happened in England to feed the cities?

How much did a set of pipes cost and who was buying them new?

[Mr.Gumby]

How much did a set of pipes cost and who was buying them new?

Some prices for the mid 19th century are quoted in the article I linked up the thread. They were not for the poor.

[david_h]

They were not for the poor.

I suspected not, which tells us something about one home for 'the music'.

Why did they go out of production? Economic downturn after he famine? A change in musical fashion? That there were enough on the market second hand? Were did the traveller pipers get them from - were they early owners or were those bought well used and fixed up?

It may be in the book referred to but I was hoping for a summary that might help us over flutes.

[Mr.Gumby]

THE END OF AN ERA
In giving up making pipes, at least professionally, in 1864 or so, the last known of the
Coynes, John, was joining a trend that saw practically all professional pipemaking cease
within six years. There may have been a number of reasons for this collapse, but it is
difficult not to see it as a consequence of the Great Famine of 1845-8. Besides the
pipers who died and emigrated, the Famine deeply affected the survivors, and more
than one observer commented on the atmosphere of desolation that hung over large
parts of the country.109 The long-established clerical antipathy to music and dancing
appears to have become more intense in the post-Famine years, and to have had a
greater effect in many areas of the country. Francis O’Neill frequently wrote of how
the music and dancing in his native parish of Caheragh, Bantry, co. Cork, was
suppressed, which left a deep and lasting impression on him, and he articulated the
feelings of many of his fellow-musicians in America.

and it goes on a bit more, best to just read at least that section of the article

[PB+J]

What I don't understand is how the population in Ireland increased in number at the same rate as in England if it was all so much poorer. Was it the poorest of the poor in Ireland (especially smallholder farmers with over-divided plots) who's bad state was remarkable? Were there other working people who were more ordinarily poor who could afford a flute?

Was it all smallholder subsistence farming? Were there larger farms with hired labour as had happened in England to feed the cities?

How much did a set of pipes cost and who was buying them new?

The usual explanation is potatoes, which could feed a family on a small plot of soil very poor soil where nothing else but potatoes would grow. Potatoes were by all accounts the sole food of most of the island for most if not all the year. Potato monoculture worked for a while, until it didn't, with disastrous results. Even during the famine, Ireland was exporting food to England

There were larger tenants but Catholics owned no more than 5% of the land at the time of the famine. O'Neill's family leased over 100 acres and probably subleased that land to other tenants. The O'Neill's could certainly afford a flute

[Conical bore]

They were not for the poor.

But affordable by middle to lower-middle class tradesmen perhaps, and not just the wealthy. The Irish Music Club of Chicago was established in 1901. Here's a photo of the members. Look at how many were pipers, over half the group! And look at their ages.




Assuming these are all expat Irishmen, they would have learned to play the pipes by the second half of the 19th Century before leaving for America. They either had parents wealthy enough to afford pipes or they were self-made tradesmen who afforded them on their own. They didn't just pick up the Uilleann pipes after emigrating to America. The "to the manor born" landowners weren't leaving Ireland, so they weren't the only ones playing these more expensive instruments.

I think this supports an argument that it was the lower to middle class tradesmen and professional class (doctors, lawyers) who were buying and playing most of the instruments, along with at least a few of the peasant laborers in the fields who could manage to acquire them.

[Mr.Gumby]

I think this supports an argument that it was the lower to middle class tradesmen and professional class (doctors, lawyers) who were buying and playing most of the instruments, along with at least a few of the peasant laborers in the fields who could manage to acquire them.

And yet, in the photo each and every one plays a set of pipes made in the US. Some of the men in the photo are professional pipers and some of the others, like Beatty with the big set, made their money in the US and spent it on an exorbitant instrument O'Neill states clearly Beatty 'commenced his musical studies' in the US.

I don't feel the situation in Chicago in 1901 translates directly from the situation in post famine Ireland when it comes to the affordability of full sets of pipes, or warrants your conclusions. The professionally made full sets would have been out of reach of the poorer players until the time, by late 19 th century, fashions had changed and those sets were being discarded. Until that time, those poor who played the pipes had to do with small sets made from native woods, the Coynes, Egans, Harringtons and Kennas etc would have been well out of reach.

[david_h]

The usual explanation is potatoes, which could feed a family on a small plot of soil very poor soil where nothing else but potatoes would grow. Potatoes were by all accounts the sole food...

"by all accounts sole food". Is it nutritionally possible to have children and raise them to childrearing age at the same rate as English workers on a diet of potatoes? How reliable are these travellers tales? Did that other half of that "half-cultivated land" have a cow , or a few sheep, or a pig?

[david_h]

and it goes on a bit more, best to just read at least that section of the article

I read it and noticed something I had been wondering about. Several pipers started off in another related trade and there is a suggestion that some local craftsmen ( blacksmiths ,carpenters) would have the skills to do repairs. So having got a flute, or a band having got some, there would probably be someone in town or in the next town who could keep them in order. And maybe someone who could turn one.

I had a conversation with a clock restorer many years ago along that lines that most cottage long-case clocks were better-off people's cast-offs and there would have been rustic craftsmen around with skills and tools to get them running again.

[Mr.Gumby]

Wheelwrights and carpenters made the odd instrument. The Moloneys of Kilrush are a case in point, they were blacksmiths and yet they made the Vandeleur set (valued £100 and they were stuck with it when the Vandeleurs didn't honour their commission of it and nobody else could afford that sort of money). William Kennedy was a clock/watrch maker and made pipes (he was blind to boot). Willie Clancy was a carpenter/joiner and made bits of pipes, planning to go into pipemaking when he died. A neighbour of mine was a carpenter originally and makes fine pipes now. Skills transfer into instrument making, to an extent anyway.

[Jayhawk]

Wheelwrights and carpenters made the odd instrument. The Moloneys of Kilrush are a case in point, they were blacksmiths and yet they made the Vandeleur set (valued £100 and they were stuck with it when the Vandeleurs didn't honour their commission of it and nobody else could afford that sort of money). William Kennedy was a clock/watrch maker and made pipes (he was blind to boot). Willie Clancy was a carpenter/joiner and made bits of pipes, planning to go into pipemaking when he died. A neighbour of mine was a carpenter originally and makes fine pipes now. Skills transfer into instrument making, to an extent anyway.

That matches Michael Cronnolly's background and story to a "T".

[PB+J]

They were not for the poor.

But affordable by middle to lower-middle class tradesmen perhaps, and not just the wealthy. The Irish Music Club of Chicago was established in 1901. Here's a photo of the members. Look at how many were pipers, over half the group! And look at their ages.

Assuming these are all expat Irishmen, they would have learned to play the pipes by the second half of the 19th Century before leaving for America. They either had parents wealthy enough to afford pipes or they were self-made tradesmen who afforded them on their own. They didn't just pick up the Uilleann pipes after emigrating to America. The "to the manor born" landowners weren't leaving Ireland, so they weren't the only ones playing these more expensive instruments.

I think this supports an argument that it was the lower to middle class tradesmen and professional class (doctors, lawyers) who were buying and playing most of the instruments, along with at least a few of the peasant laborers in the fields who could manage to acquire them.

Most of them were expats but not all. Most were born just around or after the famine, when economic conditions were somewhat different. They are mostly O'Neill's generation