OT: Say NO to plastic bags!!

Redwolf · Post by **Redwolf** » Tue Apr 29, 2003 5:53 pm

Walden wrote:I like the paper sacks better than the plastic ones because they are more useful and they tend to be sturdier. Also they are naturally biodegradable.

Unfortunately, they're only really biodegradable if you shred them and use them in your compost heap (I used to do that with the odd newspaper I'd buy). Nothing in a landfill degrades (they've found decades old newspapers in sanitary landfills that are still readable!).

If they're more useful to you, however, they'll tend to get reused, and that's a good thing (that's actually why I use plastic bags...I have more use for them than for paper, so they tend to get reused).

Redwolf

Walden · Post by **Walden** » Tue Apr 29, 2003 6:37 pm

Redwolf wrote:Unfortunately, they're only really biodegradable if you shred them and use them in your compost heap (I used to do that with the odd newspaper I'd buy). Nothing in a landfill degrades (they've found decades old newspapers in sanitary landfills that are still readable!).

And they burn less toxically than plastic.

Redwolf · Post by **Redwolf** » Tue Apr 29, 2003 6:50 pm

Walden wrote:
Redwolf wrote:Unfortunately, they're only really biodegradable if you shred them and use them in your compost heap (I used to do that with the odd newspaper I'd buy). Nothing in a landfill degrades (they've found decades old newspapers in sanitary landfills that are still readable!).
And they burn less toxically than plastic.

You've got me there!

They don't burn things at our landfill (and we have a gas fireplace), so it's not an issue we run into, but I bet paper bags make good kindling.

Redwolf

Daniel_Bingamon · Post by **Daniel_Bingamon** » Tue Apr 29, 2003 7:23 pm

Oil is starting to become a renewable resource. Technology is only a short step away from making oil from various forms of refuse materials like Turkey Parts, Chicken Droppings and Canola Oil.

This one makes an oil that compares to Light Texas Crude:
Turkey Parts:
http://www.discover.com/may_03/featoil.html

Canola Oil:
http://www.badgeroil.biz/industrial/biodiesel.htm

Making Plastics From Chicken Dropping
http://www.india-syndicate.com/sci/gvjsci/18jan02.htm

Biomass Conversion
http://www.greenhouse.gov.au/renewable/ ... rsion.html

Several Landfills around the US are already harvesting Natural Gas that is ocurring from decaying matter that is place in the landfill. In the old days, this stuff escaped and caused danger to landfiills, laters they burned if off and now they are using it.

With the prices of oil climbing, great amount of waste products available because of increase poplulation, this type of stuff is beginning to become practical.

So come on and give some credit to us capitalists, where there's a will there's a way to solve these problems.

Redwolf · Post by **Redwolf** » Tue Apr 29, 2003 9:19 pm

Several cars and trucks in our area run on recycled vegetable oil (basically, biodiesel).

Redwolf

ErikT · Post by **ErikT** » Tue Apr 29, 2003 9:53 pm

Trees might grow slowly, but we've been harvesting them now for years. It just takes a little planning - that doesn't mean that it's a bad idea. Most national forests, for instance, have more trees now than they did 100 years ago. This is because of good forest management and timber sales - also fire management (but that is another debate). Private tree farms are also quite effective. Weaerhauser (sp?) and Pope Resources (as well as others) own much of the Pacific Northwest's forest land and have been careful to protect their investment by intelligently farming them. It takes about 30 years to get a crop but when they do, they replant and start over - "giving to the next generation". They have now gone through several generations of 'crop' rotations.

Sara, I can't help but wonder what the costs are associated with cloth. I have found that most things have a cost. For example, if I used cloth bags, what do I put my trash in? My trash has to be in bags or they won't take it (I tried not using bags; just leaving it in the barral, but they got mad). I wonder how much water it takes to make one bag. I wonder how much bleach (unless you buy raw bags) it took to make the cloth. I wonder how much cotton and how much fertilizer had to go into the ground to grow the cotton. Or maybe it's synthetic - in which case, it is just a *more* re-usable plastic bag.

I tend not to put much credence in positions that promote one product over another. Cloth vs. Plastic diapers, for example. Probably cloth is better, but I've seen convincing arguments both ways.

For myself, I prefer to limit consumption. If I don't need a bag, I'll say - "no thank you". If I'm thinking about changing a diaper, I think - "can it wait 1/2 hour until he goes to bed"? If I'm considering going to McDonalds (king of the waste paper world) I think about what I have at home to eat. I also have tried to cut down on pre-packaged foods (still working on this one).

So, I'm sorry, I can't join you in your plastic bag boycott, but I will use them as sensibly as possible.

Erik (who uses plastic bags for trash bags, kitty litter bags, barf bags, bags to wrap baby pooped clothe in, lunch bags - not after being pooped in....)

Walden · Post by **Walden** » Tue Apr 29, 2003 10:35 pm

ErikT wrote:For myself, I prefer to limit consumption. If I don't need a bag, I'll say - "no thank you". If I'm thinking about changing a diaper, I think - "can it wait 1/2 hour until he goes to bed"? If I'm considering going to McDonalds (king of the waste paper world) I think about what I have at home to eat.

Well, having tasted McDonald's food, I might say that there are more reasons you could be thinking that, than just waste paper issues.

Jack · Post by **Jack** » Tue Apr 29, 2003 10:44 pm

When somebody mentions that they eat at McDonald's I have an uncontrollable urge to hit them over the head.

*bonk*

Redwolf · Post by **Redwolf** » Tue Apr 29, 2003 11:32 pm

ErikT wrote:Trees might grow slowly, but we've been harvesting them now for years. It just takes a little planning - that doesn't mean that it's a bad idea. Most national forests, for instance, have more trees now than they did 100 years ago. This is because of good forest management and timber sales - also fire management (but that is another debate). Private tree farms are also quite effective. Weaerhauser (sp?) and Pope Resources (as well as others) own much of the Pacific Northwest's forest land and have been careful to protect their investment by intelligently farming them. It takes about 30 years to get a crop but when they do, they replant and start over - "giving to the next generation". They have now gone through several generations of 'crop' rotations.

Sara, I can't help but wonder what the costs are associated with cloth. I have found that most things have a cost. For example, if I used cloth bags, what do I put my trash in? My trash has to be in bags or they won't take it (I tried not using bags; just leaving it in the barral, but they got mad). I wonder how much water it takes to make one bag. I wonder how much bleach (unless you buy raw bags) it took to make the cloth. I wonder how much cotton and how much fertilizer had to go into the ground to grow the cotton. Or maybe it's synthetic - in which case, it is just a *more* re-usable plastic bag.

I tend not to put much credence in positions that promote one product over another. Cloth vs. Plastic diapers, for example. Probably cloth is better, but I've seen convincing arguments both ways.

For myself, I prefer to limit consumption. If I don't need a bag, I'll say - "no thank you". If I'm thinking about changing a diaper, I think - "can it wait 1/2 hour until he goes to bed"? If I'm considering going to McDonalds (king of the waste paper world) I think about what I have at home to eat. I also have tried to cut down on pre-packaged foods (still working on this one).

So, I'm sorry, I can't join you in your plastic bag boycott, but I will use them as sensibly as possible.

Erik (who uses plastic bags for trash bags, kitty litter bags, barf bags, bags to wrap baby pooped clothe in, lunch bags - not after being pooped in....)

That's about where I'm at too (well, not at McDonalds, since they don't have a single thing I can eat, but Subway and Taco Bell...my personal fast-food lures...generate a fair amount of waste paper too

).

Redwolf

Martin Milner · Post by **Martin Milner** » Wed Apr 30, 2003 3:56 am

Walden wrote:
ErikT wrote:For myself, I prefer to limit consumption. If I don't need a bag, I'll say - "no thank you". If I'm thinking about changing a diaper, I think - "can it wait 1/2 hour until he goes to bed"? If I'm considering going to McDonalds (king of the waste paper world) I think about what I have at home to eat.
Well, having tasted McDonald's food, I might say that there are more reasons you could be thinking that, than just waste paper issues.

I think McDon's do a lot of recycling. Having Tasted their food I'm convinced they recycle plastic bags into burgers.

mamakash · Post by **mamakash** » Wed Apr 30, 2003 6:58 am

In our family, we bring back plastic grocery bags to be recycled and use brown paper ones for garbage.
I'm dissapointed in our disposable country(USA). All it takes is a little effort to reuse or refill.
I cringe everytime a snack or beverage is remarketed in a new "cool" plastic container. I can't see any reason for putting a handful of snacks in a plastic container.
Even The Body Shop here in the states stopped their refill and recycle programs. I used to buy the pressed powder refills and feel good about not throwing out a whole plastic compact. I don't like The Body Shop as much anymore.
A friend and his girlfriend wrap gifts in colorful newspaper or catalogs, rather than gift wrap. What a great idea! I find "Lark in the Morning" newletter makes really cool gift wrap. And that catalog is so big, there's plenty for gifts of all sizes!

Steven · Post by **Steven** » Wed Apr 30, 2003 7:38 am

A number of years ago, when recycling programs were just getting started, there was a catchphrase: "Reduce, Reuse, Recycle." It didn't seem to catch on very well, and I haven't seen it at all for quite some time, but it really makes sense. The trick is to do things in that order. First, reduce the amount of stuff you consume. Then, reuse the stuff you already have rather than getting new. Finally, recycle what you can't reuse any more. Do all that, and you have a lot less garbage on the curb on Monday morning (or whatever day they come in your area).

With grocery bags, we actually sometimes get plastic and sometimes get paper, depending on which one we need more. However, we do try to reduce the number we get. When the people in the store do the bagging, they assume you can't carry any bag that weighs over 2 ounces. So I just do my own bagging -- I'm faster than most of them, and I put a lot more in each bag. Also, when we're just getting milk or a paper or something, we ask for no bag (even though they often assume you want one).

We use both paper and plastic bags for a variety of things around the house. Paper ones are handy, because you have to put paper recycling in them to put it out on the curb. We're lucky where we live because we can recycle all sorts of paper, not just newspaper, so we really have a need for the paper bags. Plastic ones get used for many of the purposes people have already mentioned. Plus, we keep a bunch of them wadded up in the back of my car and we do take them into the grocery store to reuse them. Our store even encourages this by discounting your total by about 4 cents for every bag you bring yourself. The plastic ones are a lot easier to do this with, because you can wad up a bunch of them into a very small space.

Finally, when the bags are pretty well worn out (or with the really flimsy ones that some stores give you that don't last long at all), another grocery store chain near us has containers to recycle the plastic bags at every store.

So we don't reduce our use of these things to zero, but I think we do pretty well, and it really doesn't take a whole lot of extra effort. Now if we could just convince everyone to give it a try....

Steven

rbm · Post by **rbm** » Wed Apr 30, 2003 7:52 am

On the tree front managed coppiced willow takes only a couple of years or so to be at harvest.
This is being started arround Manchester(uk)

The paper etc made from this then should be collected burnt for power generation reducing the carbon cycle down to a few years rather than millions to help with the reduction of greenhouse gasses.

ot
other ways to reduce the production of green house gasses would be to

1. build a whole heap of atomic power stations.
2. shoot anyone who eats rice
3. shoot all the cows/sheep/horses.
4. shoot loads of people (about 9/10ths of the world population)to reduce the requirement for energy

Sara · Post by **Sara** » Wed Apr 30, 2003 9:13 am

Hi again all,

Thanks for all the replies - it's interesting to read everyone's opinions and views!

In reply to ErikT - I wasn't talking about using cloth bags for trash. My original post was strictly about plastic grocery bags. It's good that you are conscious of how much plastic you use. So many aren't. If cloth bags couldn't be used and plastic was still used for the majority of things - it would help if more people limited their use. But so many can't see out of their own little worlds to see that the planet is being trashed so they see no need to re-use bags and conserve. It sounds like most of the people on here are environmentally conscious and that's cool.

Peace,
Sara

P.S. McDonald's is horrible - I don't know how it's stayed in business for as long as it has! Along with some of the other fast-food places.

Steven · Post by **Steven** » Wed Apr 30, 2003 9:52 am

rbm wrote:On the tree front managed coppiced willow takes only a couple of years or so to be at harvest.
This is being started arround Manchester(uk)

The paper etc made from this then should be collected burnt for power generation reducing the carbon cycle down to a few years rather than millions to help with the reduction of greenhouse gasses.

ot
other ways to reduce the production of green house gasses would be to

1. build a whole heap of atomic power stations.
2. shoot anyone who eats rice
3. shoot all the cows/sheep/horses.
4. shoot loads of people (about 9/10ths of the world population)to reduce the requirement for energy

But Richard, burning all that gunpowder to propel all those bullets would lead to a major environmental disaster!

Some people just don't think about the consequences of their actions!!

Steven