Flute Materials

[JCortese]

You know, as long as people are talking about flute materials, I've been curious lately as to whether or not people use dymondwood to make flutes. It's a laminate that's fabulously hard, works up well enough in the various things I own that have been made from it, and can be very nicely polished. Is it a matter of the wood working poorly for flutes, being too heavy, being difficult to manage in the workshop, or just unpopular for cosmetic reasons?

[dunnp]

Ralph Sweet at least made some whistles out of it. He may have made a few flutes and low whistles as well.

[Steve Bliven]

And both Gene Milligan and Paul Busman either currently or have in the past, offered whistles in Dymondwood.

Best wishes.

Steve

[Mladen]

Another thing which affects the rigidity is the micro structure of the timber, take bamboo as an extreme example. it's has a low density, but it has the longest fiber among the woods, which gives a very high rigidity and low energy loss.

Compared to soft plastic, like PVC, it has higher density than wood, but has no fiber at all, so the sound is not rich, Delrin has higher rigidity, so it works better than PVC."

It seems very convincing to me.

This explanation sounds convincing indeed and is fairly common sense, even for us who are not into physics too much.

I cannot get my head around the fiber thing, though. Perhaps someone could elaborate on this? How does fiber (and fiber length) complement density in making the sound wave more stable?
Does it have anything to do with the density/hardness thing?

[kmag]

What I found interesting is that another factor besides density and the nature of the bore's finish is mentioned.

There will always be the fact of no two flutes being identical in manufacture. When that factor is ruled out the choice of material is next. I personally feel that material does make a difference. I also play Shakuhachi and I have never found, for me, a good substitute for bamboo for that instrument. I believe flutes are more than just tubes. The way they play, the blow, and how they feel in the hand are all part of the experience and how it feels to the player does affect how it sounds to the audience. It is not just about density in my mind. I think it also involves weight, cell structure, and now the idea of fiber length has been introduced. I think it is an interesting addition.

[Geoffrey Ellis]

Compared to soft plastic, like PVC, it has higher density than wood, but has no fiber at all, so the sound is not rich, Delrin has higher rigidity, so it works better than PVC."

It seems very convincing to me.

The delrin flutes that I make (and that other makers of this type of flute make) have the conical bore. I don't know if any makers use a machinable version of PVC or if you are speaking of standard PVC pipe material. I think it is important to compare apples to apples in this regard. Is one comparing a cylindrical bore PVC flute with a cylindrical bore delrin flute of the exact same dimensions? Is one comparing a PVC pipe flute against a conical bore flute made from delrin? I could see how a well made PVC pipe flute might sound dull if compared to a well made conical bore delrin flute (for example) but they would be totally different animals.

I'm very skeptical that in a blind listening test that anyone is going to be able to distinguish between PVC and delrin if the flutes are of the precise same design. From what I've read, PVC can be machined but it doesn't necessarily machine well (I've never tried so this is all hearsay). I don't know how effectively anyone could ream a conical bore in a piece of PVC rod stock, as compared to delrin. So without taking that extra step then one is only comparing PVC pipe to a piece of delrin that has been machined to the same dimensions (i.e. made into a pipe). Until such an experiment is made, I think that the notion that the rigidity of delrin is going to be audibly superior is just unsupported speculation. Perhaps an educated speculation, but still speculation.

[Geoffrey Ellis]

What I found interesting is that another factor besides density and the nature of the bore's finish is mentioned.

There will always be the fact of no two flutes being identical in manufacture. When that factor is ruled out the choice of material is next. I personally feel that material does make a difference. I also play Shakuhachi and I have never found, for me, a good substitute for bamboo for that instrument. I believe flutes are more than just tubes. The way they play, the blow, and how they feel in the hand are all part of the experience and how it feels to the player does affect how it sounds to the audience. It is not just about density in my mind. I think it also involves weight, cell structure, and now the idea of fiber length has been introduced. I think it is an interesting addition.

I do think that you are correct about the importance of how the flute is experienced by the player. I think that a player who is really connected to their flute and feels good about it might actually play better and the audience will share that experience. But most of the discussions about materials tend to hinge on whether the material itself affects the sound, and this can't really be isolated easily. Flutes do have tiny variations and no two really are exactly the same, though one might get pretty close. Certainly the players impressions (holding the flute) are going to be different from the listener. This subject has been pretty well flogged, I agree, but in all of the tests (however limited) that have been done where the listeners were removed from the influence of personal, subjective impressions (i.e. had no idea what they were listening to because it was a blind test) they could not distinguish differences in material. This link has undoubtedly appeared before, but its worth posting again: http://members.iinet.net.au/~mtattersal ... erials.htm

[hpinson]

This is just an observation, but I've noticed that the best sounding, to my ear, wooden flutes also tend to come alive - vibrate in my hands when playing. I can't say I've experienced that with a Delrin flute, though my sample is limited. The Delrin flutes I've tried seem heavy and dead in comparison to wooden ones - with very similar bore design and embouchure. Thoughts on that?

[JCortese]

And both Gene Milligan and Paul Busman either currently or have in the past, offered whistles in Dymondwood.

Best wishes.

Steve

Thanks for your replies. I've seen the odd dymondwood whiste online, but I guess I'm wondering about the likelihood of seeing a low D flute at some point, or maybe a piccolo. It just seems like it would be a good material, yet I rarely see it, and it makes me wonder if there is a reason I'm not perceiving why makers or buyers wouldn't agree. (Maybe there's a part of me that dreams of a flute the color of a Texas barfly's nail polish. )

For my opinion, I tend to think that nothing without a double-blind study will be of value; there have been too many studies where people's ears get tricked by the romance of 400-year old violins and where new fiddles sound as good as or better than the old Cremonese ones as long as neither the audience nor the players know which is which. People can fool themselves too easily, especially when it comes to something as emotionally engaging as music and a material with the romance and beauty of natural wood. I adore natural wood, even down to the warmth and feel of it, but I plan on going Delrin-only for my flutes, even should I decide to get a keyed one someday.

Part of this is because I live in the Northeast corridor in the US, and while there are many places that run hotter/damper and colder/drier, there are few that swing so widely between them during the year. I want a flute that I know won't misbehave under that kind of stress.

[Geoffrey Ellis]

This is just an observation, but I've noticed that the best sounding, to my ear, wooden flutes also tend to come alive - vibrate in my hands when playing. I can't say I've experienced that with a Delrin flute, though my sample is limited. The Delrin flutes I've tried seem heavy and dead in comparison to wooden ones - with very similar bore design and embouchure. Thoughts on that?

I recently made a batch of Pratten flutes from a variety of materials including one from delrin (in fact it's on the Irish Flute Store website right now). Blayne said some very obliging things about that particular flute, as did paddler when he he played it. I also thought it to be a very lively and responsive flute.

Delrin makes outstanding instruments...period. It doesn't meant that all the delrin flutes that you play will be good instruments because there are too many other factors, but as a material there is nothing dead about it at all (acoustically). Just the opposite, in fact. It gives a really smooth bore that is uniformly rigid and reflective and it machines very cleanly, allowing the maker to replicate detail very easily. Again, some players might not vibe well with a synthetic material, but objectively it makes great woodwinds.

Everyone has different views on the subject of materials, of course, but at this point my own experiences have convinced me that the ongoing fixation of players (and many makers) on the significance of materials has some mystical component. And I don't mean that to be in any way dismissive--these things are important. You have to enjoy picking up your flute, and for many the character and uniqueness of wood inspires them. I work mostly with different woods, so I totally get it. I love wood.
But I've made a lot of flutes from a lot of materials. About 5,000 instruments at this point from more than 30 or so different types of wood. When I first started, I really believed that materials mattered. As time went on, this changed as I experimented more (and as my ability to replicate design aspects improved), and eventually I came to realize that the other factors we've mentioned (bore shape, bore surface, embouchure cut, finger holes, etc., etc.) were the actual factors affecting the sound. I've done some experiments to specifically isolate the wood in the equation (to distinguish the body, or walls of the instrument from the surface of the bore). My conclusion is that its not the material. This conclusion is supported by the few controlled studies that have been done on the subject.

Of course, as mentioned in every other thread on the subject (and a number of times by myself) the surface of the bore is absolutely affected by the material and how it machines. If it is not finished in some way that eliminates irregularities then you are going to hear/feel it.

I've had this discussion with other flute makers, a number of whom strongly disagree and put tremendous emphasis on material, but I honestly think that they are confusing the small differences that result from the "human factor" for the sound of the material. I try to make each type of flute that I construct as consistent as possible with others of its type. I've gotten pretty good at that and take great pains but I'm fully aware of the small variations that occur. I cut the embouchure holes on my Pratten flutes using a template, but the cuts are finished by hand (they have to be) and as a result they are each unique. You might not be able to see it, and you might be hard pressed to actually measure the difference but its there. It's all too easy to ignore those minute variations and assign any perceived difference to the wood.

[Peter Duggan]

The delrin flutes that I make (and that other makers of this type of flute make) have the conical bore. I don't know if any makers use a machinable version of PVC or if you are speaking of standard PVC pipe material. I think it is important to compare apples to apples in this regard. Is one comparing a cylindrical bore PVC flute with a cylindrical bore delrin flute of the exact same dimensions? Is one comparing a PVC pipe flute against a conical bore flute made from delrin? I could see how a well made PVC pipe flute might sound dull if compared to a well made conical bore delrin flute (for example) but they would be totally different animals.

I'm very skeptical that in a blind listening test that anyone is going to be able to distinguish between PVC and delrin if the flutes are of the precise same design. From what I've read, PVC can be machined but it doesn't necessarily machine well (I've never tried so this is all hearsay). I don't know how effectively anyone could ream a conical bore in a piece of PVC rod stock, as compared to delrin. So without taking that extra step then one is only comparing PVC pipe to a piece of delrin that has been machined to the same dimensions (i.e. made into a pipe). Until such an experiment is made, I think that the notion that the rigidity of delrin is going to be audibly superior is just unsupported speculation. Perhaps an educated speculation, but still speculation.

Michael Cronnolly's (M&E) flutes are 'machined from solid polymer rod stock'. Not sure which polymer, but (noting that I've never actually handled one) pretty sure it's not Delrin and believe it might be PVC?

Likewise Vincent Bernolin turns baroque flutes (and I do have one of his) and recorders from resins which he's apparently helped to develop for the purpose.

[JCortese]

Michael Cronnolly's (M&E) flutes are 'are machined from solid polymer rod stock'. Not sure which polymer, but (noting that I've never actually handled one) pretty sure it's not Delrin and believe it might be PVC?

I've got an M&E keyless and a Tipple PVC, and they are very, very different materials. The PVC feels almost ridiculously lightweight and is unmistakably plastic. The M&E polymer is much denser, and has been finished in a way that made the lower body joint look pretty much exactly like dark wood. I would never have mistaken the Tipple for wood.

I think there are a few types of acetal polymers, and Delrin is just a brand name for one of them. PVC is a very different animal, and would never be mistaken for any of the polymers.

ETA: I found this online -- http://www.plasticmentor.com/134/is-the ... copolymer/ -- and it has an interesting comparison between acetal copolymer and Delrin (which I think is a DuPont brand name). They both have what appear to be decent strengths and weaknesses, but one of the particularly interesting quotes from it is, "If a large rod is to have the middle or center machined out, then Delrin is an excellent choice."

[Peter Duggan]

Well, all I can say is I've seen folks saying M&E's polymer is anything from Delrin to PVC, including (in the latter camp) Jayhawk here, so who knows?

I love my ebonite M&E. I also really liked my polymer (PVC - Michael's old website discussed it was a medical/food grade PVC he had specially made as rod stock).

[JCortese]

I think there's just some confusion as to what the names are. The chemical names for the various stocks seem to be:

Acetal copolymer: often called "polymer" by makers
Delrin: a homopolymer (no clue what this might mean in terms of chemical structure and how it differs from a copolymer)
PVC: neither, but I think there may be people around who are using the word "polymer" as a sort of catchall phrase for "anything not wood that might be called plastic casually"

[Peter Duggan]

PVC: neither, but I think there may be people around who are using the word "polymer" as a sort of catchall phrase for "anything not wood that might be called plastic casually"

https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=pvc+polymer

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