Low D Sweet vs Burke

[figaro]

I have been through the search on this site and looked at many related postings. I am in hopes that there are some of you out there with experience on the whistles I am interested in. First, my story.

I LOVE my Sweetheart high D diamondwood whistle. I have several others and keep going back to it. Several years ago I “won” a Burke Low D Viper on eBay. I had so much trouble playing it that I put it away. I would try every now and then and give up. A few months ago I decided I was going to play it! Boy did I have trouble. I am finally over the pain of learning the pipers grip and have gotten rid of most of the squeaks and squawks. My opinion of the Burke now is that it is still a little difficult to play especially when switching back and forth to high D whistles. Also, I find the sound kind of weak especially on the low D and E (very easy to overblow). Also, I can’t get the C anywhere near in tune.

I am thinking about the Sweetheart Rosewood but that is kind of expensive for me right now. I am also interested it the Walt Sweet Onyx. It is less but I worry that if I got it I will wish that I had spent the extra for his Dad’s whistle. Let me add that I am very disappointed because a week ago I sent emails to both Sweets asking questions and did not get an answer from either.

I would like comparisons if you have them between Walt and Ralph Sweets Low D. Then, Sweet and Burke.
A. Are the holes closer together and smaller on the Sweets and if so does that make them easier to play?
B. Are the Sweets louder?
C. Are Ralph and Walt’s whistles similar in playing, sound and volume?
D. Does the Sweet have more backpressure?

I need to decide if
1. I buy a Walt Sweet Onyx.
2. I hold out for the Ralph Sweet
3. I keep working on the Burke.

[Byll]

I made a mistake in judgement years ago, and sold my Viper - only to realize my error, and purchase another. I shall not make that mistake again. During the time I did not have the Viper, I continued to play two other Low Ds that I own, which are excellent instruments. I still play both, in appropriate situations. During that same interim period, I became entranced with the technology behind the Onyx - conical barrel - Delrin - off-set tone holes - etc. I purchased one.

Neither the Viper nor the Onyx have a complex sound. They tend toward the relative pure side of the timbre bell curve. The Onyx sounds very much like a 6 holed flute, the Viper more like a pure low D whistle… The Onyx sound is very unique to me. I have never heard anything quite like it. Both have fine construction detail, intonation, and playability.

Walt positions the Onyx tone holes in an off-set ergonomic pattern, which is adjustable. I suppose this makes hand placement easier for some. I prefer the standard pattern. One can use piper's grip on both instruments.

Neither the Viper nor the Onyx are particularly kind when it comes to needed breath. However, the Viper has more subjective resistance to air flow, and seems to need slightly less overall volume of air.

To answer your questions above, in order:

A. Are the holes closer together and smaller on the Sweets and if so does that make them easier to play? I never measured the distance between - nor size of - the tone holes, but subjectively the feel of the Onyx is that the holes are closer together. This is partly the result of the off'-sets. The Onyx feels heavier than the Viper.
B. Are the Sweets louder? Again - no measurement, but subjectively, no. In fact, I would say the opposite.
C. Are Ralph and Walt’s whistles similar in playing, sound and volume? Again, the Onyx has a sound like no other whistle I have ever played. It is very much like a wooden flute. So much so, that a friend of mine sold her MK to purchase an Onyx, for that one reason. I feel that the Viper has a breath and fingering response that seems crisper than the Onyx. I also find the upper register of the Viper to be more pleasant to play and to listen to.
D. Does the Sweet have more back pressure? For me personally, less…

If I may be so bold: Many things have been written and said about all whistles out there, the Viper included. However, I have never heard - nor experienced - a weak bottom end on the
Viper. Two of its characteristics have always been ease of playing and dependability. Changing from a Viper - or from most standard hole-position low Ds - to an Onyx is a a big step. Try to borrow one from somewhere, and try it out before purchase. I made the mistake of not following my own usual common sense, and ended up selling the Onyx at a loss. Yes. The Onyx is a truly fine instrument. Simply not right for me…

The very best to you in your search.
Byll

[Steve Bliven]

Let me add that I am very disappointed because a week ago I sent emails to both Sweets asking questions and did not get an answer from either.

For what it's worth, over the years I've sent many emails to both Walt and Ralph and have, unfailingly, gotten rapid, courteous, and useful responses.

Lest you feel too much disappointment, consider that this is the vacation season (even for whistle and flute makers) and it's also the high season for festivals, conventions, music camps, musters and all the other stuff that keeps musicians and vendors away from their computers.

Best wishes.

Steve

[tomcat]

I own an onyx and find it to be one of my favorite whistles. It is easy on the hands and can be quite expressive. I also have a Burke low C. It too is one of my favorite whistles. I struggled playing it until I started using my pinky finger on the right hand to cover the last hole. Purest may shudder at the thought, but it works for me. I even use it on my Burke low Eb. However there's no need to do so on the onyx.

I find the onyx to be rich w overtones while the Burke is pure. However, the Burke can bellow out its bell note. It nearly rattles the windows. (Slight exaggeration but it does boom out the bottom notes)

A couple of years ago I went on a campaign to find my perfect low d. I tried several and sold all but the onyx. I will admit I did not try a low d Burke. I am glad I didn't because I more than likely would have been "forced" to keep them both!

[Feadoggie]

I will admit I did not try a low d Burke. I am glad I didn't because I more than likely would have been "forced" to keep them both!

And what would be the harm in that?

I like my Burkes. But you knew that already.

Feadoggie

[The Lurking Fear]

Walt positions the Onyx tone holes in an off-set ergonomic pattern, which is adjustable. I suppose this makes hand placement easier for some. I prefer the standard pattern. One can use piper's grip on both instruments.

Neither the Viper nor the Onyx are particularly kind when it comes to needed breath. However, the Viper has more subjective resistance to air flow, and seems to need slightly less overall volume of air.

To answer your questions above, in order:

A. Are the holes closer together and smaller on the Sweets and if so does that make them easier to play? I never measured the distance between - nor size of - the tone holes, but subjectively the feel of the Onyx is that the holes are closer together. This is partly the result of the off'-sets. The Onyx feels heavier than the Viper.
B. Are the Sweets louder? Again - no measurement, but subjectively, no. In fact, I would say the opposite.
C. Are Ralph and Walt’s whistles similar in playing, sound and volume? Again, the Onyx has a sound like no other whistle I have ever played. It is very much like a wooden flute. So much so, that a friend of mine sold her MK to purchase an Onyx, for that one reason. I feel that the Viper has a breath and fingering response that seems crisper than the Onyx. I also find the upper register of the Viper to be more pleasant to play and to listen to.
D. Does the Sweet have more back pressure? For me personally, less…

If I may be so bold: Many things have been written and said about all whistles out there, the Viper included. However, I have never heard - nor experienced - a weak bottom end on the
Viper. Two of its characteristics have always been ease of playing and dependability. Changing from a Viper - or from most standard hole-position low Ds - to an Onyx is a a big step. Try to borrow one from somewhere, and try it out before purchase. I made the mistake of not following my own usual common sense, and ended up selling the Onyx at a loss. Yes. The Onyx is a truly fine instrument. Simply not right for me…

The very best to you in your search.
Byll

A couple notes-

Walt Sweet will make an Onyx w/in line holes if one wishes.Mine has in line for the lower hand,and an offset T3.Didn't ask for the T3,just came that way but no problem. I use piper's grip but can use my pad on the T3.Walt doesn't feel the offset,at least on the bottom,is conducive to piper's grip.I suppose that is probably more an individual thing,though. If the offset is what makes the transition a "big step" -( I can't myself understand why,unless perhaps for an individual having no experience w/"regular" grip such as on smaller keys)- then I guess the solution would simply be to have an Onyx w/in lines.

I haven't measured spacing against my other low Ds but as it is the only model I can consistently play comfortably due to carpal tunnel I suspect the conical bore,not the offsets, lessens the spacing, at least on the lower hand. It may however be that the conical structure is what provides more comfort for me,and spacing difference may be slight.

I don't find the Onyx to be unkind in air requirements. My experience with other low Ds is pretty limited,(I only have 3 others,2 cheapos and a Howard) but I'm nearing 60 and haven't done roadwork in years but find it easy to play.That should say somethin',I'm thinkin'.

[figaro]

Thanks to everyone for the comments so far. I am still trying to decide. I did find this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=250pFay_8Ho on YouTube and was surprised that he said they were about the loudest low d whistles. The onyx does have a different sound. I would say the timbre of the Rosewood would probably more closely match my Diamondwood high D. But I still wonder about the extra money!

Byll. Please let me explain that I am not a pro. My comments about the Burke being weak on the low E and D could very well come from my inexperience. What I am saying is that the sound is not as loud on the 2 lowest notes and attempts to match the volume of the other notes causes me to jump to next octave. I am getting closer to learning the limit on how hard I can blow those notes.

Steve. I should have mentioned that years ago I communicated with Ralph and got very quick answers. That leads to to another questions. Does anyone know if the two are totally in competition with each other now? I’m not sure what kind of answers to expect if I ask them to compare the onyx to the rosewood.

[Tyghress]

Hi! I'm the shipper/office mgr for Ralph at Sweetheart Flutes. I don't believe the email sweetheartflute@aol.com received anything, and the best address for a reply is ralphsweet@aol.com and Ralph always always always answers his mail. To my knowledge, so does Walt, but I don't have his email so I can't pass that on. Try again, as I am sure both would be happy to hear from you and answer your questions.

Yes, Walt has his own business going, using his preferred materials, and Sweetheart Flute remains dedicated to wood.

I have a Walt Sweet low D, a Burke low D, Kerry, a few others and of course the Sweetheart Low D, and the air requirements for both the Sweet and Sweetheart are comparable. I find all others to be MUCH higher. I have a preference for wood to all other materials.

Sincerely,
Amy Bissell, aka Tyg

[brewerpaul]

I have a fairly early model Sweetheart Dymondwood low D and really love it. I sold a Copeland to buy it if that tells you anything. It has a very "woody", flutelike tone and plays easily and clearly throughout the full two octaves.

[figaro]

Tyghress and brewerpaul, thanks for your comments.
I have thought about writing to Ralph again. My unanswered emails to them were pretty much asking the same things I asked here. I guess it isn’t really fair to a maker to ask comparisons of theirs to other whistles. That’s why I decided to bring it here.

Tyghress, if you wont get into trouble with your boss will you answer this. Would the Sweetheart better match the tone of my Sweetheart high D than the onyx? Of course maybe you would say yes to get in good with the boss. (joke)

I must say that I am progressing well with the Burke but still making lots of mistakes because of not getting the holes covered well. I still feel, however, that the sound of it more closely matched my narrow bore burke brass whistle than my Sweetheart high D. I am starting to feel my resolve to not spend $550 slip away. It’s not so much that I can’t afford it. It is just that I fear spending that much and not having a whistle that I am any happier with.

Also, another strange question for Tyghress. Could you tell me the lengths of the two different sections of the Sweetheart?

[Feadoggie]

Figaro, let me read between the lines here, if I may.

There's no sense wasting a lot of time deliberating between the Burke and the Sweetheart. At least not from what I've read from you here.

If you can get out to a festival or workshop where you will encounter some of these whistles do that. Base your decision on first hand experience. That is the right way to make the decision. But maybe that's not convenient.

There is little magic in the world of whistles. Every maker makes a whistle according to their own conception of what a good whistle should sound like and play like. That's great, lots of diversity, plenty of choices, spice of life and all that. It happens, at least from my experience, that the two makers about which you are deliberating have rather different conceptions of "the good whistle".

If you prefer the sound and playing characteristics of the Sweetheart whistles buy the Sweetheart low D. If you can't handle it, pass it on and buy another whistle, maybe one of Walt's low D's.

The Sweetheart whistles are whole other vision of what a whistle should be compared to a Burke. If you like that, place your order. Stop messing about. It's a good whistle. Some of us may not prefer with the Sweet vision of a whistle. But that's no matter. It's you that matters. So order one. I'd probably go with Walt's whistle though. But it's your opinion that counts, not mine.

If you prefer the sound and playing characteristics of the Burkes then keep working on the Viper.

The Burke Viper is a professional whistle. It is open. It has good volume. The dynamics range is broad. I could go on but ... It is what it is because of the way Michael Burke makes his whistles. It is what he wants to make. You can buy a different low D but you cannot buy a better low D than the Burke Viper. And if you think you can't play the Burke, fine. Move on. But it is a very good whistle. If you can come to terms with it you will be a better player. But at this point you have already made your decision to move on. You wouldn't be posting here otherwise. Send the Burke to me.

Anything anyone here tells you will be based on their experience, their preferences, their requirements, their hand size, their repertoire, the sign they were born under, etc.. And no advice offered will be wrong, just different. While all of our opinions may be valid information, it has nothing to do with you, how you play and what you want to sound like. We'd probably have to install a Match.com filter here to get whistle advice right for each individual. But then you'd have to marry or at least date the one who suggested that whistle. Not an option for many of us.

Order the Onyx. It was the option you placed first on your list. It is what you want.

Feadoggie

[Tyghress]

And if you really want, most sellers have some return policy for people who aren't happy with their whistle.

[figaro]

Okay Tyghress, if you see an order from a guy named Paul in Lawrenceville IL make sure you send him a good one. Pick out one of the best with a nice dark color Strange thing. My email sent to ralphsweet@aol.com were not going through but did if I used the “form” on the web page.

[ytliek]

On several occasions I've used both the website contact form email and regular email and every posting went thru ok. Every query got immediate response so I'm not sure what your contact issue is with Sweetheart Flute Co.. Typing?

If you like wood go for the wood. And see my recent postings... sweet!

[Tyghress]

Okay Tyghress, if you see an order from a guy named Paul in Lawrenceville IL make sure you send him a good one. Pick out one of the best with a nice dark color Strange thing. My email sent to ralphsweet@aol.com were not going through but did if I used the “form” on the web page.

Paul, I sometimes remember names and orders, but if you drop a note to sweetheartflute@aol.com upon ordering, we'll do our best to pick you just the right one <grin>.