Whistle construction - octave hole

rapp · Post by **rapp** » Thu Nov 15, 2001 10:48 am

On 2001-11-14 20:02, avanutria wrote:
I don't know exactly *how* it works, but I do know that for the second octave you half-hole the octave hole, and you do have to overblow in the second octave just like a whistle.

Well, that answered part of my question, but I still don't really get it. If you still have to overblow, what does half-holing the octave hole accomplish? Strengthen the tone? Flatten the note being played, in order to correct upper-register intonation?

And, if you make use of the hole by either fully- or half-covering it, why not just reduce its diameter by half so that you can either cover it completely or not at all? Why half-hole it?

Hmm. Mysteries, mysteries.

Thomas-Hastay · Post by **Thomas-Hastay** » Thu Nov 15, 2001 3:41 pm

A Recorder has a conical(decreasing)bore as well as an "octave" hole so just adding a c' natural thumbhole to a d'Whistle doesn't make it a Recorder. Abell's(as well as others)have options for a c' natural thumbhole.

The second octave on a cylindrical whistle without an "octave" hole plays slightly flat in tone due to peculiarities in acoustics for cylindrical bores. Adding a thumbhole so a player can "pinch" or correct for this flattening effect is an improvement on basic whistle design.

The c'natural tonehole is very near a natural "node" and by "pinching" open a tiny hole with a thumb,a player disrupts the fundamental harmonic mode. This leaves the second mode(octave)the dominant one without the added loudness caused by overblowing in a ducted labium voicing.

nickb · Post by **nickb** » Mon Nov 19, 2001 4:58 am

An octave hole might be a good addition to a susato whistle. It might make that second octave a little more tolerable.

Daniel_Bingamon · Post by **Daniel_Bingamon** » Mon Nov 19, 2001 9:00 pm

Depending on the whistles design, it works on the first and sometimes a few others. A true octave vent is located half way between the end of the windblock and the end of whistle.

It causes a pressure drop in the middle of the whistle and this encourages the second octave note to produce. That is why they are slightly louder.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Daniel_Bingamon on 2001-11-19 22:02 ]</font>

Robin · Post by **Robin** » Mon Nov 19, 2001 10:55 pm

The Generation whistle bought from Ebay may not have an octave hole. I observed some "Irish music" players locally who bored a small hole on the bottom - between the top two holes - which, when covering the top hole and opening this back-hole, gives the flattened seventh - Cnat on a D whistle. The stated reason was to avoid the cross fingering. Sounded normal. Reckoned it was easier to play faster, but I doubt it with practice.

On a recorder, from memory, the top hole is the octave hole, and the back hole gives you a scale note? Flattened 7th? Can't find a recorder fingering chart...

Cutting other backholes in appropriate places should give other "chromatics" on a diatonic whistle.

Which leads me to a question or two...

1) What is a "Flagolet"? I have heard that one type - by this name - has two back holes (with 8 front holes). What are they for and where are they? I seem to rememeber that the original reference I heard was to a french type of whistle.

I know the generic term "flagolet" - I know a fair bit about music

2) Does anybody have a "Tipperary Flute". I was given one as a child in the 1950's. It was conical, a fipple, at least one backhole (up the top) I remember, made of black plastic. It was NOT actually a recorder - I seem to remember clearly that the octave hole was in a different position - at the back - which is why I seem to remember that it was diferent from a recorder. I can't remember exactly how many front holes it had - at least 8. It died in my childhood - along with other things... I have seen one some years ago, but the owner had put it in hot water and it went into a very strange shape ...

Robin

mike.r · Post by **mike.r** » Tue Nov 20, 2001 3:24 am

When I began tuning and modifying my whistles earlier this year,I was blissfully content with my tweaking until one of the best whistle players in my area indicated that the higher 2nd oct notes were flat although the 1st oct was ok so it was back to the drawing board.As a singer it has long been my perception that a slightly sharp tone will always sound more pleasing than a flat tone and `sounds´in tune even though it's not, so the way I have dealt with the problem is this:1st oct F# A & B are tuned slightly more sharp then neighboring notes until the 2nd oct is in tune without the need to overblow.When I gave this one to my friend for evaluation he said it was perfect,which of course it isnt...perfect imperfection would be a better description,just like my singing!;)Of course,an octave or Cnat hole is a nice idea for a whistle.

Peace, Mike

ErikT · Post by **ErikT** » Tue Nov 20, 2001 3:39 am

I'm not sure that I understand. Several of you have said that you are having problems with flat upper registers. I've never had that problem... in my experience, it is the upper register that goes sharp. Am I reading something wrong?

Erik

Robin · Post by **Robin** » Mon Nov 26, 2001 7:16 am

"A Recorder has a conical(decreasing)bore as well as an "octave" hole so just adding a c' natural thumbhole to a d'Whistle doesn't make it a Recorder."

Sorry, not all "Recorders" made have had conical bores...

Robin

Daniel_Bingamon · Post by **Daniel_Bingamon** » Wed Nov 28, 2001 6:26 pm

This is true, renaisannce recorders have nearly straight bores. Usually expanding a little after the bottom tonehole. They are the "missing link" between Tin Whistles and Recorders in the terms of evolution.

Whistle Taxonomy anyone?
Whisletikus Tin
Whisletikus Recorder