Pratten V Rudall Rose V Baroque

[accordionstu]

I've been playing flute for many years but not really played Irish Trad on a D flute. I see most Trad players using Pratten style flutes and some on Ruddall Rose but none playing a baroque style, keyless flute. Is there any reason for this? Surely there shouldn't be many marked sound differences in a Baroque style flute against the others.

I prefer to be a bit individual and would like to buy a Baroque style keyless to,play trad irish music at sessions etc but I'd appreciate some honest critique here.

[Jayhawk]

Hi accordionstu - by Baroque most of here will think very small holes, narrow bore, and one key (Eb), which leads to a quieter, chromatic flute. A Baroque flute can be played in session (provided it's in A=440, which historical ones were not and many reproductions are in older keys like A=392 or 415), but they're usually too quiet and get lost in the ruckus.

If you're just referring to a keyless flute, I've always seen infinitely more keyless flutes at sessions. Many are R&R or Pratten based, but some are based on Hawkes, Firth/Hall/Pond, or Nicholson flutes...and some are an amalgamation of what the flute maker likes in an Irish flute and are their own beasts so to speak. You don't need keys for most ITM - you can half hole or cross finger many notes (Eb usually is terrible, though).

Does that help any? Welcome to the forum, too!

Eric

[an seanduine]

Stu, I'm going to give you a slightly different twist on this issue. You've logged a lot of hours on higher pitched, fairly small embouchure instruments. I see you've worked closely developing the Millyard-Molem instruments. I should think you have developed a well focused high pressure jet of a personal blowing style. This will stand you in good stead in getting a deep, dark tone if that is your goal. Chris Norman has little difficulty in generating volume on a Baroque style of flute. You might give him a listen or two. Another example of a 'high-pressure' player might be Marcus Hernon or Conal O'Grada.
What will be comfortable, or 'natural', to you will have to be determined by trial. I think a 'hands on' survey is probably your best course.
Enjoy the process!

Bob

[Jayhawk]

I've not heard Chris Norman live, ever, but I when I think of his lovely tone it's when he's playing his boxwood Rudall and Rose flute, not a baroque flute.

Eric

[chas]

. . .Surely there shouldn't be many marked sound differences in a Baroque style flute against the others. . .

I prefer to be a bit individual and would like to buy a Baroque style keyless to,play trad irish music at sessions etc but I'd appreciate some honest critique here.

Yet there IS a marked sound difference between a baroque-style flute and even a small-holed romantic (Irish) flute. Going from the ~8x9 mm embouchure to the ~10x12-13 mm embouchure, increasing the tonehole size, and changing the diameter and taper of the bore had a huge effect on the sound. The baroque flute was designed for flexibility in the fingerings and sweetness of the sound. The romantic flute was designed for power, and flexibility in fingerings was replaced by keys, which opened up the sound of the accidentals.

As some others said, it's possible to approach the playing of the traverso as though it's an Irish flute. It won't get you there, and it sounds like you'd view it as a challenge. I think someone has an Aulos matte-black flute on the board right now. That would be a good place to start. It's inexpensive, based on a transitional flute, and has really good volume for a traverso.

[tin tin]

I've not heard Chris Norman live, ever, but I when I think of his lovely tone it's when he's playing his boxwood Rudall and Rose flute, not a baroque flute.

He plays Baroque flute on the album 'Wind and Wire.'

Accordionstu, I'd recommend Ardal Powell's excellent treatise 'The Flute' to put these various styles of flutes into context.

When the Baroque flute was in vogue, halls and ensembles were smaller, and volume wasn't a big priority. That shifts in the 19th century, which is part of what accounts for the louder flutes created then.

Surely there shouldn't be many marked sound differences in a Baroque style flute against the others.

Having just done a flute demo with another player, showing a modern Irish flute alongside a Baroque flute, a 19th century English antique, and a modern copy of an early Rudall and Rose, I can say the sound differences are quite marked.

As for why it's specifically English 19th century simple-system flutes that became the standard for Irish flute playing, there are various theories, a common one being that as professional players moved to the Boehm flute and its variants, the old flutes were available cheap. At any rate, that's the tone that became the standard in Irish music.

But, speaking of Chris Norman, not everyone thinks it has to be that way: http://www.robertbigio.com/norman.htm

[tin tin]

Oops--double post.

[accordionstu]

Oops, I think I might not have explained myself properly but thanks everyone for their comments, some are more relevant than others and I have learned a few things today What I meant to say but failed miserably, was some makers make flutes that have an appearance of flutes in a baroque style, that's not to say they have the small holes and weird fingering of a baroque flute, but the tennons on each joint are housed in a bulbous socket without rings and they are keyless. The holes are the same size as the holes of a Pratten the design is just more baroque than modern looking.

so I suppose my question is why do people prefer the styling i.e appearance of the Pratten and R&R instead of the classical turned wood that baroque flutes have? Surely it cant sound any different?

apologies again if this isn't clear

[Peter Duggan]

Assuming you mean the likes of Dave Copley's 'One Key Baroque Style Flute' from his Catalog and Photo Gallery, then, sure, it's just a matter of styling and they'll play/sound like his regular flutes. In which case there's no obvious answer except that most folk probably just associate the styling with its normal context and choose accordingly. So no harm in being as individual as you like here, though I do wish Dave had a better way to describe these!

[accordionstu]

Assuming you mean the likes of Dave Copley's 'One Key Baroque Style Flute' from his Catalog and Photo Gallery, then, sure, it's just a matter of styling and they'll play/sound like his regular flutes. In which case there's no obvious answer except that most folk probably just associate the styling with its normal context and choose accordingly. So no harm in being as individual as you like here, though I do wish Dave had a better way to describe these!

Precisely Peter, (without the key though) I just like the look of the Baroque flutes, no moving parts either or rings to come loose, just pure wood as nature preferred it , lol.

[RudallRose]

Chris rarely plays his original boxwood RR. He plays a "copy" made by Rod Cameron, a lovely powerful flute.

He also has many other flutes and is now making his own models, of which are very good.

Chris in person is something to witness. The colors of tone he gets from his flute are pretty incredible.
He's a performer, little doubt.

But he's also just flat-out good.

fwiw.

dm

[jim stone]

Yes, I did a workshop with CN. He played his cameron rudall. Oh my, what a sound! And loud!

[chas]

Once for a lesson, Chris couldn't find a D flute. So he did the whole thing on a G renaissance flute, transposing and folding on the fly. As Dave said, he's just flat-out good. (If you've ever played a ren flute, you'll know how difficult it is to take something you've played on an Irish flute and transpose it and convert to renaissance fingering all at once.) I never got him to play the Cameron and original R&R side-by-side, but one time the Cameron was out for maintenance, so he was playing the R&R. He's equally impressive on both, but I just like the look of boxwood. It is a gorgeous flute up close.

[Jayhawk]

Wow Chas...that is some fluting gymnastics by Mr. Norman!

To answer what turns out to be the real original question - tis purely aesthetics. I like the look of metal rings on my flutes, but I'm not adverse to curves or unique designs (I like what Casey Burns and Sam Murray do on their flutes). The one flute I owned without metal rings, well, I put them on.

I do like a slide, which real Baroque flute don't have, because it allows greater tuning range which has been helpful when dealing with out of tune boxes I've played with from time to time...and it also seems to me most slideless flutes do get a bit of tuning oddness around the high A and B.

Finally, I personally prefer keys - especially if you're playing with a group or recording. I know of professional players who do great without keys...but I find they make life easier.

Just my $.02 worth. There is most definitely value in having a flute with fewer parts to go wrong, fewer places to leak, etc.

Eric

[accordionstu]

I do like a slide, which real Baroque flute don't have, because it allows greater tuning range which has been helpful when dealing with out of tune boxes I've played with from time to time...and it also seems to me most slideless flutes do get a bit of tuning oddness around the high A and B.

Finally, I personally prefer keys - especially if you're playing with a group or recording. I know of professional players who do great without keys...but I find they make life easier.

Just my $.02 worth. There is most definitely value in having a flute with fewer parts to go wrong, fewer places to leak, etc.

Eric

Thanks Jayhawk, I will probably be ordering one of these, (The top One) love the look, his G flutes play very well and it has a tuning slide too .