ickabod wrote:
This got me to thinking… Perhaps I’m missing something. Is this an Irish Traditional forum and other non-traditional members or approaches to music are trespassing where they shouldn’t be? Perhaps most people on this forum are iTrad folks and while it really isn’t a spoken or written rule, the expectation is that folks who participate in the forums here need to be “iTrad” folks?
I think it might be true that some people in this forum have only ever experienced whistle from within the tradition of Irish music, and, through the magic of inductive logic, they conclude therefore that all whistle music is strictly Irish Trad.
This really comes up when people talk about "the right way" to learn (by ear of course...) or the "the right way" to make an embellishment.
StevieJ wrote:The difference I see today is that several of the people actively moderating now seem to be primarily interested in Irish trad. And strange to say I find myself thinking that they come down a little too hard on efforts that don't meet their standards.
In other words, all 3 of us? Look at all the threads generated here; I believe that in terms of our opinions the mods don't loom that large. But if something isn't as purported, I don't see how my or anyone else's saying so is wrong so long as it's reasonable and defensible.
I don't know how many times I must repeat myself: I thought Tal's piece was fine, lovely even. But it is NOT The May Morning Dew. What's so hard about that?
Also, I think that to qualify the above statement with the moderatorial angle is unhelpful. We are, per policy, allowed to participate with our mod hats off. With our mod hats on, we do not dictate style, nor do we deceive ourselves that it should be otherwise, much less that anyone would pay more attention because of a title that in some regards is really little more than denoting a virtual janitor. At least I hope they wouldn't. But as members, we may have our say, to be considered or discarded like anyone else's. Indeed, normally these days I usually refrain from comment, although in this particular case one might not believe it.
"If you take music out of this world, you will have nothing but a ball of fire." - Balochi musician
StevieJ wrote:The difference I see today is that several of the people actively moderating now seem to be primarily interested in Irish trad. And strange to say I find myself thinking that they come down a little too hard on efforts that don't meet their standards.
In other words, all 3 of us? Look at all the threads generated here; I believe that in terms of our opinions the mods don't loom that large. But if something isn't as purported, I don't see how my or anyone else's saying so is wrong so long as it's reasonable and defensible.
I don't know how many times I must repeat myself: I thought Tal's piece was fine, lovely even. But it is NOT The May Morning Dew. What's so hard about that?
Also, I think that to qualify the above statement with the moderatorial angle is unhelpful. We are, per policy, allowed to participate with our mod hats off. With our mod hats on, we do not dictate style, nor do we deceive ourselves that it should be otherwise, much less that anyone would pay more attention because of a title that in some regards is really little more than denoting a virtual janitor. At least I hope not. But as members, we may have our say, to be considered or discarded like anyone else's. Indeed, normally these days I usually refrain from comment, although in this particular case one might not believe it.
Actually I wasn't thinking of you particularly, and I formed this opinion long before the thread you are talking about, so I wasn't thinking about that either.
I don't think you can take your moderators' hats off.
StevieJ wrote:I don't think you can take your moderators' hats off.
Yeah, that's the question, isn't it. I guess all I can do is appeal to the membership to imagine us with said hats off at such times. Remember, moderatorship here does not confer the mantle of style authority, nor should anyone think otherwise. I certainly don't.
"If you take music out of this world, you will have nothing but a ball of fire." - Balochi musician
ickabod wrote:I have “kind of” been learning the “unwritten or unspoken rules” of the forum. There are certain things that seem to stir up controversy.
I guess the part I don’t understand is why there is such a hair trigger as it relates to iTrad. It would be much clearer if someone presented a piece of music with the message of “This song is done how it should be in Irish Tradition”. To me, this statement would invite this kind of debate that was done with Talbert St. Claire.
So I’m a bit confused as to the enforcement of iTrad protocol. Rather, not so much enforcement, but a highlighting of a swing and a miss type of critique to music that wasn’t really billed as iTrad to begin with (such as the case with Talbert St. Claire).
Don’t get me wrong here. I’m not at all suggesting there isn’t any value to pointing out whether something falls in or out of Irish Tradition. Because, there certainly is value to that. Some folks, I’m sure, would appreciate learning where they are falling out of tradition and want some direction to correct themselves to get back in line with the Irish traditional approach.
I wasn’t sure of greenspiderwebs intentions on the Talbert post, but I don’t believe his intention was to set the precedent on performing May Morning Dew in the Irish Traditional way. I think all he was doing is sharing a video for people’s enjoyment (unless I missed something)....
Got here late in this one, so maybe I can help you (and others) understand why. I posted it for two reasons-for those who enjoy low whistle primarily, and also because Talbert asked. Simple as that. I did not listen to the whole clip-just started it and I didn't care for the car version, compared to his CD version, so I didn't listen any farther. I never thought for one moment if it was correct or not-just in case someone might enjoy hearing it. I do not have any connection to Talbert St. Clarire, other than a historical one here-and from buying a whistle way back when from him-and it wasn't a positive outcome. But that was then, and now is now, and I just figured letting bygones be, and moving on from there.
Now, I don't have the trad ear like Nano and MT have, nor do I profess to be otherwise blessed or cursed. I just come from a low whistle viewpoint, and play mostly just to hear the low tones that please me. I've been mostly an improviser in the past, but also pick up a tradional tune here and there when it sounds great to me on the low whistle (and just so you know, May Morning Dew isn't one of the tunes I play). I'm also not a stickler for correctness in tune playing, as I don't have the hardwiring capabilities it seems, as I am "blessed" with some form of ADD that keeps me from learning note for note tunes unless I have to (and I don't). So I am no judge to what is correct or not in any musical form or tradition. I play for me, and my sanity, that's where I begin and end. The cats don't seem to mind anymore, though I won't claim it for the wife.
I took Nanohedron's post differently than he meant, apparently (gee, big surprise-it's the internet folks!), so I'm sorry for that, Nano, now that you've made that perfectly clear. And I know of MT's prowess in knowing what is and isn't in a tune, so no argument there.
So, I'm fine with that, and can see that if you're learning the tune, for tradional purposes, then Talbert's isn't the one you want. And that leads to the questionable validity of the tutorial-it then seems just to become a tribute to how TSC plays it-and if that's your meat, then so be it. Far be it for me to mince words over it.
Of course, if I had thought on it a little while longer, I may have come to the conclusion to post this in the Youtube thread, where it wouldn't have been so headlined as it tends to be in the more prominent forums. Given the history of the branches that were bent in the past by the subject, that might have been better there, than fodder here.
Tell us something.: Playing Scottish and Irish music in California for 45 years. These days many discussions are migrating to Facebook but I prefer the online chat forum format.
It's certainly true that I took up the whistle to play Irish trad and I think of it as an Irish trad instrument.
Though I do Church gigs and studio gigs at which the music being played isn't Irish trad, the idea of hiring a guy to play uilleann pipes and whistles is to evoke an Irish trad sound.
When I hear somebody coming to the whistle from a completely different musical viewpoint, such as the guy who plays whistle in the Pirate band at Disneyland (he's a professional singer and plays the whistle in what might be called a jazz/pop style), it strikes me as somehow inappropriate. Ditto when I hear somebody playing on the uilleann pipes or Highland pipes who knows nothing about the traditional stylistic devices normally associated with those instruments, but plays the chanter as he would a saxophone.
Coming from the viewpoint I do, I wouldn't think it at all inappropriate for the whistle forum to be moderated by trad players.
(here's the guy at Disneyland, who makes his living playing whistle)
Tell us something.: Instrument maker and researcher exploring new methods of creating traditional instruments with longevity aforethought. Player of the whistle, flute, and continental European border pipes.
pancelticpiper wrote:It's certainly true that I took up the whistle to play Irish trad and I think of it as an Irish trad instrument.
I feel the same way. The playing style and embellishments have arguably been optimized over the years for that instrument, and ignoring them in my opinion ignores the full potential of the instrument. For example, when I play Harlem Nocturne on my 8-key, I use cuts, rolls and cranns just like on any other tune. Granted, the rhythm and inflection will be different, but I see no reason to deviate from the core articulations of the instrument. I feel a lot of people use the excuse "Oh, I don't play Irish music" as a deflection from learning the skills associated with the instrument regardless of genre.
I think you nailed it there, Madman. Michael McGoldrick or Brian Finnegan, or for that matter a lot of players of other instruments like Sharon Shannon, can branch creatively out into other directions because they have proven their chops on their instrument, and their understanding of the ITM form in an absolutely irrefutable and irreproachable way. That's why I accept electronic keyboards in Altan's music - not just that they use them in (IMO) a tasteful textural unobtrusive way, but because they are ITM musicians of very high caliber and have proven their understanding of the form over and over.
That said, there are other bands who I think use keyboards and/or other rock-band instruments obtrusively and tastelessly, and to the point where their use obscures the ITM form completely - I think here of Clannad. And when things come to e.g. an Afro-Celt Sound System, all I hear is the glaringly uncreative lust to get recorded by consciously jumping on a music-industry labeling bandwagon.
When I first moved to Vancouver in 1990 as a bright-eyed young(ish) percussionist looking for opportunities my home town didn't offer, someone I was playing with once asked me if I wanted to make my mark by "doing something really creative." I shocked them by simply saying "no." I said that if I wanted to play the music of another culture - which is what we were doing at the time - I had to learn that music inside and out before I would consider mutating it with my "creativity." I still feel that way after all these years, and in fact I accept that I will never learn enough about ITM to want to impose "my vision" on it: it is a lifetime's work and I am perfectly happy with that. I didn't have the education of a Finnegan or Shannon, and possess no such vision or ambition. What I do possess is humility in the presence of my musical betters - a disappearing commodity in Western culture as any episode of "American Idol" will prove. Taking another culture's instrument - whether it's whistle or kora or Hardanger fiddle or whatever - and saying you're making that culture's music by noodling on it, or adding electric guitars or rapping over it, is an insult to that culture.
"Creativity" is up there with "love" as one of our culture's most abused words IMO, and coming in for a bit of scorn from people with a genuine love and understanding of another culture's music is no more or less than anyone deserves for buying into the music industry's definition.
"There has been too little concern lately with what is right and good, and more about what will bring individual power. It is hard to watch such idiocy and not feel angry."
Not sure I'd agree the ornamentation used is connected to the instrument as such. It's a way of embellishing tunes across a range of instruments used in the Irish tradition and as such above all connected to that music.
To be honest I am more surprised by people proclaiming they don't play Irish music who then want to learn the full complement of rolls, cranns and the rest.
Thank you Pancilpiper, there's nothing like REAL illumination; if a picture is worth a thousand words, that comparison was priceless.
When I was young I loved R&B, soul, rock, especially amazing guitar riffs and the rhythm section. I later discovered IT and was so drawn to it that I actually have cds of just pipes. People who laugh at the music say things like "oh you like that funeral music?" Yes, I do, makes the hairs on the back of my neck stand up. Others say, "oh you like that ice cream truck music?" referring to the whistle. Just things to ignore. I'm an American who took up whistling when my daughter was born for something to do while I was with her (she's 25 now). Later I studied with Bill Ochs for some direction in how the whistle can be played to get the most joy and best quality playing I could reach. I went back and forth and it's only been amateur hour for me. This music is so difficult to learn to play really well and yes really properly if that's what you want to, which is what I want to do. Attaining the lilt, some speed, learning breathing and breath control, learning the conventions first and then perhaps bending them a bit, learning to read first staff and now ABC notation (with Mary), by ear, maybe putting something unique of you in it, is a steep mountain to climb, especially if not a young Irish child who may have heard this music every day from birth; but it has brought me such incredible joy. I'm 65 now and registered for an Irish week class of lessons, jamming, shows, etc in WV in July. It's a chance for me to open up on this wonderful instrument in a sort of immersion way.
I was and am drawn to the great players and the best players here who yes are IT players and that's what I happen to love. I don't begrudge anyone wanting to do something else on the whistle, but it seems to me that one should expect a strong IT slant in discussions of the music on this Board. There's a reel called The Ashplant which I play and I recently heard on YouTube a bluesy somewhat less than IT version and loved it, so I started playing it on my Copeland G which is throaty raspy and jazzy and that's great fun too.
"This is this; this ain't something else. This is this." - Robert DeNiro, "The Deer Hunter," 1978.
This whole iTrad vs everyone else discussion leaves people like me feeling vastly inadequate. I play fairly well, but my ornamentation stinks. I'm practicing, but my 'style' is never going to be 'good enough'. You know? I'm just another American trying to play Irish Traditional Music.
I waver between "I gotta try harder and practice more!" to "Screw it - I'm playing what I like."
sherriev wrote:I play fairly well, but my ornamentation stinks.
Don't take this the wrong way, sherrie, because what follows is intended to be helpful. But your statement is a contradiction, at least if you're talking about Irish trad (as you said).
The ornamentation in this music is not "ornament", and it's not extra. It's the articulation: the way you play the notes. And what you're saying is that you play fairly well but you can't play the notes properly. Trying harder and practicing more won't help if you're not working on what you can't do.
I'd suggest a change of mindset. Stop telling yourself "I play fairly well". That will only hold you back. Tell yourself, "My playing stinks because my ornamentation stinks". Then work on it. Why should your style never be good enough? Everyone who is good wasn't good at some point, and had to work to train fingers and ear. I speak from experience. Then, as Mr. G. might say, someday you'll be good yet.
Trying harder and practicing more won't help if you're not working on what you can't do.