Pipes- how is value determined?

[glands]

Sets are getting expensive. That's for sure.

K&Q and Woof sets are Ferrari sets. Not everyone can afford to "drive them." But that doesn't mean that they should be devalued so all "drivers" could afford to own one.


I do not own a Ferrari but I do have two Fiats ( who are majority share holders in Ferrari)... and one of my Fiats is one of the most fuel efficient cars currently available, with an engine that is good for half a million miles with minimal maintenance.....

My point ?... Cars are Tools for transport... Musical Instruments are Tools for Art....
Cars deprieciate..... Good Pipes don't!

I couldn't agree more about musical instruments being tools for art. And I believe good pipes, when taken care of, appreciate in value.

I do own a Ferrari.....which is a souped up Fiat.....that gets 10mpg....but is priceless to me.....and I think there is "art" in a good hard drive....while listening to Uilleann Pipes, of course!!

Ferrari has nearly completed its new ultra supercar "La Ferraria." They are constructing about 500 of the $1.5M cars. They have about 700 people who have written and showed funds available. About 400 cars have been designated to "worthy" customers. Sounds like a pipemakers list!!! They require an agreement to sell the car back to Ferrari if it is no longer desired by the original purchaser. This is to prevent speculation. I think what it means is the car is sold second-hand on consignment. While I disagree with this approach, as it sounds like price fixing, it may make some sense in the world of top shelf instruments.

[glands]

in fact, it had two Koehler reeds. They weren't right. One was bad. The other was, say, 90%. The chanter sold to a man who lives 500 miles away in CA. He knows what he is doing. The reed that was 90% did not work in his climate! His is different than my "similarly Irish clime of SF. He was able to make it good with some sanding etc but only after a literal microscopic examination. Such is the way it is with the very best reeds!! What plays here will play neither there or even there....and vice versa.

Again, if you got the chanter fitted with a good reed from Ben, or whomever, and it was important to recoup your investment and waited, there is no doubt the instrument would have sold for what you paid for it. K/Q instruments keep their value. In fact, until your report... I've never heard of a K/Q instrument loosing value on resale!? Odd!?! Over the years I've known everything from late 80s to 90's through until now... instruments K/Q, flat and concert alike, going for new prices.[/quote]

The chanter was purchased by a reedmaker/piper who knows the market, owns several top class sets, etc. He offered what he felt it was worth and convinced me of such. I think its clear that I probably paid too much at the outset. But that's OK. No regrets. I dont take issue with a pipemaker making a profit off of me....nor do most of you. But, I imagine most of you would take issue if i had made a profit on resale!!

[Brazenkane]

As I wrote (and again), I think a reasonable upcharge is fine. If you paid shipping to get it reeded, used your own resources and time to get it up and running, grand! Take your cut for whatever you think that's worth.

[PJ]

How is VALUE determined? That's a subjective question and will differ for everyone.

How is PRICE determined? Easy, it's what a willing buyer will pay and a willing purchaser will accept. And that's entirely between the buyer and the seller.

I had to insure my Whitmer set of pipes recently, and to get an insurance value, I took the replacement cost, as per the maker's price list.

However, I've had that set since 2005 and I've put a lot of time into getting used to it. At this point, I don't think I could ever play another concert pitch set and be able to get as much out of it as I can get out of my Whitmer set. So I don't think I'd ever sell it. I'd be worried that I'd never able to get to know a new set as well as this one.

It's unfortunate that pipemakers are not financially rewarded as well as they deserve. It's probably small consolation but the quality of your work will ensure that you are remembered long after many of the rest of us are long forgotten.

[PCL]

And what is a reed worth?

[Brazenkane]

And what is a reed worth?

This really has nothing to do with this thread... Though...Try this as a short answer

tell me...how does your chanter sound without one, Or one that doesn't sound or play well?

[glands]

Kynch, its a good and relevant question. The reed is quite valuable. If the reed fails then the pipes become a potentially good instrument rather than a great instrument. Ask me how I know!! Shame on me for not continuing with the craft of reed making as I did not see the necessity over the past decade. Knowledge gained was lost. Skill sets expired. Set sold.

[geoff wooff]

The Reed is VERY valuable!!!!

A quarter (approximately) of the time it takes me to produce a full set is spent making,tuning and fitting the reeds.... of course this time (cost) is absorbed into the price of the finished instrument... but how can I charge properly when someone asks me to make a replacement reed or completely re-reed a set ?

The need for a new set of reeds rarely happens ( baring accidents)... perhaps this might be due to the amount of time and care I put into the originals.

Advice; Look after your reeds or learn to make them yourself.

[PJ]

Make that: Look after your reeds and learn to make them yourself.

[rorybbellows]

A quarter (approximately) of the time it takes me to produce a full set is spent making,tuning and fitting the reeds.

400 hours to make a full set. 100 hours to make reeds for that set , thats two and a half weeks for four reeds . I dont count the drone reeds cause you should be able to knock them up in ten minutes.Come on Geoff yuo're also having a laugh.

RORY

[geoff wooff]

A quarter (approximately) of the time it takes me to produce a full set is spent making,tuning and fitting the reeds.

400 hours to make a full set. 100 hours to make reeds for that set , thats two and a half weeks for four reeds . I dont count the drone reeds cause you should be able to knock them up in ten minutes.Come on Geoff yuo're also having a laugh.

RORY

Rory, I did say "making tuning and fitting." :

Reeds that are made in ten minutes usually last Ten days..... Reeds that are made over a ten day period usually last for 20+ years... well that is my experience of the subject.....

Tuning and fitting... the reeds then have to FIT and be tuned and the pipes have to agree with the reeds and be tuned.... the idea that you bore and turn a piece of wood... shove a few fingerholes in the side and put a ten minute reed into one end and get correct music out of the other is RUBBISH..... well that would be what you'd get, rubbish.

For instance, yesterday, my complete days' work consisted of bringing a batch of a dozen chanter reeds from 'first squeek' to sounding as if they all might make decent chanter reeds, sometime next week. So, perhaps two more days of very fine adjustment, taking tiny scrapes with a scalpel , bedding in the blade tips by pressure rubbing them on a sheet of plate glass, drawing air through them and listening to the sounds they are making, deciding when they are ready to test in the chanter.... then there is also the" where is this set going" question.... adjusting the humidity to suit..... etc etc....
And that is all before the real tuning and voicing begins!

Making a set of drone reeds in ten minutes is possible, with luck, but it can also take all afternoon... and then there is the 'playing-in' of those drone reeds, the further adjustment over several days.....

I wish I was 'having a laugh' Rory, but I think we are not talking 'like for like' here.

[rorybbellows]

For instance, yesterday, my complete days' work consisted of bringing a batch of a dozen chanter reeds from 'first squeek' to sounding as if they all might make decent chanter reeds, sometime next week. .

Is does sound very time consuming all right, do you enjoy that side of pipemaking or would you like to be in some partnership with a reed maker . The way David Quinn and Benidict Koelher work seems an ideal relationship where Dave can concentrate on making pipes while Ben reeds them up. I think they turn out greater number of instruments because of it.

RORY

[TheSilverSpear]

I understand why pipe makers charge what they do, but unlike other instruments (which can be mass produced, of course -- this helps), the fact there are really no other options inhibits your ability to learn.

Mr. Spear wanted to learn the box and bought himself a C♯/D Hohner for about £300. It's not the prettiest or fanciest accordion in the world, but it has a nice enough sound and does everything an accordion should do. He could learn everything he wanted to about playing the box from the little Hohner. He could (and did) buy a better box, with an even better sound, more voices, smoother action, but the point is that the Hohner isn't missing anything and he could happily play it for years.

I have been playing a half set for the last (nearly) ten years. I would love to learn how to play the regs, as that's the entire instrument, obviously, and I don't play the entire instrument, which I am not that happy about. Is that going to change in the foreseeable future? Nope. Well, not unless someone starts selling decent, playable regulators for £300 to make it into at least a 3/4 set, which isn't an economically viable thing for pipemakers to do, so that won't happen, either.

So obviously I should have taken up the box -- I think that's the only conclusion you can draw from this.

[anima]

Collectors and entrepreneurs falsely elevate the cost of the instrument. Figure out what you are willing to pay, buy that instrument and and get on with the playing.

I look at my chanter which is a wonderful Kirk Lynch creation. Through the years we have re-reeded it a few times and as Mr. Woof rightly says, it is the voicing of the reed to the chanter that is so important. My current reed is about 5 years old and cruising - works great across the ever-changing humidity of the US midwest.

What's my chanter worth? Hard to say, Kirk and I know it's idiosyncracies. It is a shoe that I have worn for the past 12 years and it fits my foot perfectly. When played by Kirk, it sounds better than when played by me, and when played by me sounds better than when played by a newbie.

At the end of the day, it's the musician that makes the music. Owning a Ferrari doesn't make you a race car driver.

Jeff

[glands]

Collectors and entrepreneurs falsely elevate the cost of the instrument. Figure out what you are willing to pay, buy that instrument and and get on with the playing.

I look at my chanter which is a wonderful Kirk Lynch creation. Through the years we have re-reeded it a few times and as Mr. Woof rightly says, it is the voicing of the reed to the chanter that is so important. My current reed is about 5 years old and cruising - works great across the ever-changing humidity of the US midwest.

What's my chanter worth? Hard to say, Kirk and I know it's idiosyncracies. It is a shoe that I have worn for the past 12 years and it fits my foot perfectly. When played by Kirk, it sounds better than when played by me, and when played by me sounds better than when played by a newbie.

At the end of the day, it's the musician that makes the music. Owning a Ferrari doesn't make you a race car driver.

Jeff

There's nothing "false" about the cost of an instrument. If $ changes hands thats real...true...not false.