Sindt prices....

[free-feet]

I do realize that price and value are not one and the same thing.

Neither are the new and used terms the same thing, and yet, the used is pricier than new.

I think you're stating it in incorrect terms when you say "used" and "new". It's more like this...

The "readily available, buy it now, get it as soon as the post arrives" price is more than the "order it whenever Mr Sindt opens his waiting list again and then wait until it's made and then wait for the post to arrive" price. Which is quite logical if you think about it some.

[ytliek]

I do realize that price and value are not one and the same thing.

Neither are the new and used terms the same thing, and yet, the used is pricier than new.

I think you're stating it in incorrect terms when you say "used" and "new". It's more like this...

The "readily available, buy it now, get it as soon as the post arrives" price is more than the "order it whenever Mr Sindt opens his waiting list again and then wait until it's made and then wait for the post to arrive" price. Which is quite logical if you think about it some.

Yes, understood. However, I would value purchasing a whistle directly from the original maker (custom made and think customer service) and in some cases at a lesser cost, than a whistle purchased immediately from just anyone at the pricier level in the aftermarket.

Even though I have purchased a "few" used whistles, I am not a strong supporter for the aftermarket. I prefer to work directly with the original maker, and if/when I learn more about the music (keys) I'll be ordering more from the original craftsman that makes the instruments. YMMV.

I'd like to toss into the discussion whether any whistle depreciates. Using terms/phrases like "rare", "antique", "not being made anymore", "closed/long waitlist", etc. doesn't necessarily raise the value of a whistle IMHO. Again YMMV.

[Steve Bliven]

I'd like to toss into the discussion whether any whistle depreciates. Using terms/phrases like "rare", "antique", "not being made anymore", "closed/long waitlist", etc. doesn't necessarily raise the value of a whistle IMHO.

But that's the law of supply and demand. Generations are readily available so a used one (unless, of course, it's a "vintage" one) generally is depreciated. Since Sindt's aren't readily available, someone who really wants one will pay above original cost. "Worth", "value", "silly money" are all pretty subjective terms depending on the interests of (or lack thereof) of the buyer.

Best wishes.

Steve (who wishes he had pile of Sindts to offer but finds the recent selling spree fascinating)

[ytliek]

I'd like to toss into the discussion whether any whistle depreciates. Using terms/phrases like "rare", "antique", "not being made anymore", "closed/long waitlist", etc. doesn't necessarily raise the value of a whistle IMHO.

But that's the law of supply and demand. Generations are readily available so a used one (unless, of course, it's a "vintage" one) generally is depreciated. Since Sindt's aren't readily available, someone who really wants one will pay above original cost. "Worth", "value", "silly money" are all pretty subjective terms depending on the interests of (or lack thereof) of the buyer.

Best wishes.

Steve (who wishes he had pile of Sindts to offer but finds the recent selling spree fascinating)

Owning both a new and a used Sindt I'm satisfied. As for a pile... there are better ones and not so better ones.

Instead of World Series or NFL Football amusement I tune in to eBinging to observe the Sindt & Copeland show.

[hoopy mike]

Not to go all Oscar Wildish on you but aren't you confusing price and value there?

Can't imagine you being Oscar Wildish, Peter. Still, I suppose it would account for how young you look whenever I've seen you in videos etc.

It's the red Converse All Stars that do it. You should see the picture in his attic though...

[free-feet]

I'd like to toss into the discussion whether any whistle depreciates. Using terms/phrases like "rare", "antique", "not being made anymore", "closed/long waitlist", etc. doesn't necessarily raise the value of a whistle IMHO. Again YMMV.

I think it really does depend on the sought-afterness of the whistle in question.

I am wondering how much of this Sindt sought-afterness has been set in motion by Gavin Whelan's tutor book, as he does really praise the Sindt over all other whistles he's played - including his MK1 Gens. And many other good whistle players are being seen more and more playing Sindts, and this does have an impact on their sought-afterness, and therefore, their value.

[Mr.Gumby]

I am wondering how much of this Sindt sought-afterness has been set in motion by Gavin Whelan's tutor book

I very much doubt that, it may have played a small part for some but a book like that would not be that influential.

Rather more I'd think of the use in competition of Sindt whisltes (which has become pretty much the standard) has been a driving force in desirability, at least for young players who are into that sort of thing and their parents. Comhaltas seems for some reason to have implemented a policy of marking down those who play other whistles ('should get better whistle' seems to have been a frequent flyer on marking forms interesting enough totally irrespective of how the whistle actually sounded when played in competition) and Sindts seem to have become standard issue in those circles.

And then there's hype. Plenty of it. I remember a (US based) member here complaining in private eight or nine years years ago that people in her area would look down at people who turned up with anything but a Burke. It seems Sindt whistles have taken over that role now. Some people think you need to be seen having one.

[Brus]

So what's the Moneyball choice for whistles?

[Steve Bliven]

And then there's hype. Plenty of it. I remember a (US based) member here complaining in private eight or nine years years ago that people in her area would look down at people who turned up with anything but a Burke. It seems Sindt whistles have taken over that role now. Some people think you need to be seen having one.

Wonder if it would be possible to develop a Sindt-shaped foil cover or sleeve that could be slipped over a Gen or Feadog or whatever to make it look more appropriate — at least until Mr. Sindt can give over to a more industrialized, mass production process.

Best wishes.

Steve

[pancelticpiper]

Totally stupid price for a tube with some holes in it. I would say it's a pretty safe bet that someone who pays that for a whistle can't play worth a sh*t.

I'm not sure if there's an equation there... which I say only because I know some very good professional musicians who are "instrument collectors" and have many more instruments than they actually need, and won't hesitate to pay top dollar for something they want.

And keep in mind that a professional can write off the instrument as a business expense (so the price he pays isn't the price he really pays).

So, I've run into "reed men" (flute/sax/clarinet "doublers") who haven't hesitated to buy a complete set of Burkes in every chromatic key, which they may or may not ever end up using at a gig.

I'm sure many of these guys have bought complete sets of Sindts... though I've only run into one such guy myself.

To these guys, who think nothing of paying $10,000 for a flute or sax, the idea of us wringing our hands over somebody paying $300 for a top-notch instrument is laughable.

Of course I've met plenty of other pros who are at the opposite extreme: yes their "ax" is a top-end horn worth many thousands of dollars but they don't own any other and have no interest in acquiring other instruments.

To Bogman's point I've certainly run into plenty of poor players who have very expensive instruments. In the Highland pipe world it's quite common to see a sh!te piper playing a 100-year-old set of silver & ivory Hendersons, while an extremely talented young player might be playing in a top Grade One band with a quite plain set of new McCallums.

The collector/non-collector thing happens in Irish music too. I ran into a guy once who was an extreme "whistle collector". He seemed to have hundreds of D whistles by every maker on earth... but who wasn't much of a player. But I've run into good players who were "collectors" too.

I'm the sort who wants the best-playing instrument I can find, and isn't interested in having any others on hand. You can only play one at a time anyhow! One good whistle in each key is all I want.

[pancelticpiper]

I'd think of the use in competition of Sindt whisltes (which has become pretty much the standard) has been a driving force in desirability, at least for young players who are into that sort of thing and their parents. Comhaltas seems for some reason to have implemented a policy of marking down those who play other whistles ('should get better whistle' seems to have been a frequent flyer on marking forms interesting enough totally irrespective of how the whistle actually sounded when played in competition) and Sindts seem to have become standard issue in those circles.

Many thanks for that insight!

Competition tends to drive conformity (the nail that stick up gets hammered down) so if the judges want Sindts all serious competitors will have to play them.

A friend had just been promoted to the top level of competition on Highland pipes and was dismayed at coming in last place in every competition. He noticed that the judges were commenting on the sound of his chanter. About half-a-dozen competitions in, one judge was explicit and said "chanter poor. Get a Naill." (Every other competitor was playing a Naill chanter in their pipes.)

So he bought a Naill and guess what? At his first competition with the Naill he came in middle-of-the-pack!

So if someone is a serious Comhaltas competitor I can suppose he/she wouldn't mind paying top dollar for a Sindt if that will mean the difference between placing and not placing.

[Brus]

So he bought a Naill and guess what? At his first competition with the Naill he came in middle-of-the-pack!

So if someone is a serious Comhaltas competitor I can suppose he/she wouldn't mind paying top dollar for a Sindt if that will mean the difference between placing and not placing.

Sounds like the stuff I read about in Frank Hall's book "Competitive Irish Dance: Art, Sport, Duty". If a few girls tan their legs and win suddenly tanned legs are de rigueur.

There's a difference, though: virtually everyone who learns Irish dance enters competitions more or less seriously. Most whistle players are not serious Comhaltas competitors, or even Comhaltas competitors.

[Mr.Gumby]

Most whistle players are not serious Comhaltas competitors, or even Comhaltas competitors.

That would be a matter of where you are I would think. I also don't think you should underestimate the number of young players with an eye on competing.

But at the same time I don't think it's 'most whistlers' who are driving the price hype around Sindt whistles (or Copelands or before those O'Riordans). Or 'professional' or otherwise prominent players for that matter. In general makers, in my experience, often enough use their discretion in allowing certain groups of serious players bypass waiting lists.

[ggunner]

The driving force behind the in-demand whistles is really no different than what has happened in athletic footwear. If Michael Jordan or LeBron James wears them or recommends them I've got to have a pair. If Mary Bergin or Joanie Madden plays it or recommends it then I've got to have one. Beyond that supply and demand drives up the cost even further. There's a limited supply of Sindt whistles without a long wait. And it only takes two bidders to drive up the cost on E-Bay. A seller's market for sure.

[PhilO]

I am wondering how much of this Sindt sought-afterness has been set in motion by Gavin Whelan's tutor book

I very much doubt that, it may have played a small part for some but a book like that would not be that influential.

Rather more I'd think of the use in competition of Sindt whisltes (which has become pretty much the standard) has been a driving force in desirability, at least for young players who are into that sort of thing and their parents. Comhaltas seems for some reason to have implemented a policy of marking down those who play other whistles ('should get better whistle' seems to have been a frequent flyer on marking forms interesting enough totally irrespective of how the whistle actually sounded when played in competition) and Sindts seem to have become standard issue in those circles.

And then there's hype. Plenty of it. I remember a (US based) member here complaining in private eight or nine years years ago that people in her area would look down at people who turned up with anything but a Burke. It seems Sindt whistles have taken over that role now. Some people think you need to be seen having one.

Well then Gens should be all the rage. I remember going to a Cathal McConnell concert and him playing Gens...A wonderful night. Do people really think they NEED to have a certain whistle and they'll sound like so and so or that others will think better of them or their playing because they have a certain whistle? Perhaps just an unfortunate few. The whistle I like is the one I feel at home with whilst playing and all the while assuming people are LISTENING and not looking at the bloody tube...