C nat. on Sindt Whistles

[bogman]

Mr. Sindt has said in interviews that he designs his whistles to be half-holed

Sorry, that just sounds like an excuse for not sorting it out. You can half hole the c on any whistle so why would you design it with a weak cross fingered c?

[Steve Bliven]

Mr. Sindt has said in interviews that he designs his whistles to be half-holed

Sorry, that just sounds like an excuse for not sorting it out. You can half hole the c on any whistle so why would you design it with a weak cross fingered c?

I would suggest that Mr. Sindt has sorted out his design very well—to meet his personal standards (and apparently enough others agree to keep him in business). If his standards don't live up to yours, there are lots of other whistles available. The variations between whistles reflects the varieties in personal tastes. Because a whistle doesn't appeal to any specific individual doesn't necessarily make it bad.

Best wishes.

Steve

[bogman]

Steve, it's nothing to do with my standards or anyone elses. Sindt whistles don't appeal to me as it happens but that's irrelevant. At the end of the day I was commenting on your quote regarding design, I think 'designing' whistles to be half holed is a bit odd.

[ytliek]

I'd be curious to know how many Sindt whistles were ever made?

[ecohawk]

Steve, it's nothing to do with my standards or anyone elses. Sindt whistles don't appeal to me as it happens but that's irrelevant. At the end of the day I was commenting on your quote regarding design, I think 'designing' whistles to be half holed is a bit odd.

bogman,

If I may add a clarifying comment to Steve's statement, John Sindt, like several other makers, uses "just" intonation, which you can read about on any of the "wiki" sites for clarity. Look, there are other notes that must be half-holed anyway (Fnat for example) so what's the big deal. It's not a design defect and John is not designing the whistles to inconvenience anyone. There's no magic rule about Cnat anyway. Lot's of whistles miss the Cnat unless one adjusts their breath or uses another fingering such as 0XX X0X or another. Jerry Freeman tells us all the time that he recommends an alternative fingering for the Gens as well.

And John's been making whistle since around 1992. He said in a 2007 interview that he had made about 2000 at that time and was making 300/year then. I'm betting it picked up over the past few years so the answer is probably around 4000 or so don't you think.

I love them. It's funny that you won't hear any professionals bring this subject up. No matter what you do there are notes on every whistle that will require half-holing or alternative fingering. It's not optional. So I'll just politely suggest that this is not worth worrying about.

ecohawk

[Mr.Gumby]

John Sindt, like several other makers, uses "just" intonation

He most certainly does not. The Sindt whistle is very rigidly tuned to equal temperament. And the large F hole that facilitates that is at the root of the C nat 'issue'.

[highwood]

Mr. Sindt has said in interviews that he designs his whistles to be half-holed

Sorry, that just sounds like an excuse for not sorting it out. You can half hole the c on any whistle so why would you design it with a weak cross fingered c?

Because "design is the art of compromise" and Sindt whistles choose one set of design goals that do not fit well with a cross fingered Cnat. It is not an excuse it is a conscious choice and IM-Not So-HO the correct choice.

Now if you choose to tune your whistle using Just Intonation one has a flatter F# and flatter B which naturally tends to give a more in tune cross fingered Cnat and with out compromising other things one can gat a useful 0XX000 or 0XXX00 Cnat This is what I do with whistles I make - though I usually half hole the Cnat any way!

And as for half holing the F _ I just made a high F whistle to avoid half holing to get Fnat (on a C whistle) in a wind ensemble piece. The sound also works much better - but I digress...

[Mr.Gumby]

It is not an excuse it is a conscious choice and IM-Not So-HO the correct choice.

That's a bit nonsensical, there is no 'correct' choice in this matter. It all depends on what you're aiming for.

Personally I wouldn't think of equal temp as an ideal choice but again it's something you can deal with. And there's again the option of using a tube with a nicer tuning.

I just made a high F whistle to avoid half holing to get Fnat (on a C whistle)

[bogman]

Because "design is the art of compromise" and Sindt whistles choose one set of design goals that do not fit well with a cross fingered Cnat. It is not an excuse it is a conscious choice and IM-Not So-HO the correct choice.

So what are the design goals you refer to? Does Sindt use just intonation or not and is so why?

[ecohawk]

John Sindt, like several other makers, uses "just" intonation

He most certainly does not. The Sindt whistle is very rigidly tuned to equal temperament. And the large F hole that facilitates that is at the root of the C nat 'issue'.

Mr Gumby I stand humbly corrected regarding Just vs. Equal temperament. Thank you. Shouldn't have a toddy before responding to messages I suppose. However my primary point which I stand by was more about the need to practice and learn half holing anyway as all whistles require it for certain notes.

ecohawk

[maki]

I'd be curious to know how many Sindt whistles were ever made?

The definitive answer is- NOT ENOUGH.

[an seanduine]

I'd be curious to know how many Sindt whistles were ever made?

The definitive answer is- NOT ENOUGH.

This is dangerously close to the advice I was given when as a raw recruit in the Navy I was being issued my uniform kit: "Son, we only have two sizes. . .too BIG and too Small."

Bob

[Cayden]

I'd be curious to know how many Sindt whistles were ever made?

The definitive answer is- NOT ENOUGH.

Maki,
True dat yo!

Snoop Cayden

[highwood]

It is not an excuse it is a conscious choice and IM-Not So-HO the correct choice.

That's a bit nonsensical, there is no 'correct' choice in this matter. It all depends on what you're aiming for.

Personally I wouldn't think of equal temp as an ideal choice but again it's something you can deal with. And there's again the option of using a tube with a nicer tuning.

I just made a high F whistle to avoid half holing to get Fnat (on a C whistle)

revisiting my post I realize I did not express myself very well - probably from trying to not be too verbose

I consider the choice to be a correct one because:
1/ It is a conscious choice
2/ and because I think there are several more important things (think tuning and timbre) that should be choices before Cnat fingerings

I do not happen to agree with the choice of equal temp - I strongly prefer just intonation, and make and use whistles "tuned justly"

I have several years ago spent a fair amount of energy on chasing a good Cnat 0XX 000 fingering - both mathematically and practically. Many tubes later I decided it was a wild goose chase since other things more important to me seemed to be destroyed in the hunt for a cross fingered Cnat.
I then began to focus on tone, chiff, responsiveness, and tuning between octaves ignoring 0XX000 and ended up with designs that had good cross fingered Cnats. Sometimes things just work out.


As for the F whistle - more important than the fingered 'Fnat' was the fact the just intonation of the C whistle did not really work with the key of the piece. This gave me some inspiration to design, make and try a high F whistle (the composer wanted a high whistle 'floating' over the other instruments). The tonality and tuning of the F whistle worked much better with the piece.

Sorry to side track the thread with hi F whistles!

[Mr.Gumby]

As for the F whistle - more important than the fingered 'Fnat' was the fact the just intonation of the C whistle did not really work with the key of the piece.

My was a bit tongue in cheek as I seemed to detect a confusion between C and D whistles and the need to half hole the F (nat) on either. But never mind, enough digression.