Chanter too Sharp (original post was in error)

[bobkeenan]

I gave my concert D concert Chanter to Brad Angus to mate up with a full set. He let me borrow another new D concert pitch chanter so I could keep practicing while I wait. I brought my collection of reeds that I have been making over the past few months. There are about a half a dozen of them that work fine in my old chanter. There are also a couple of Brads that he made for the older chanter that also work well.

Every one of my reeds and his were about a half a note sharp on the new borrowed chanter. So....He whipped together a reed quickly for me that was not fully finished and its also flatter than I want it. I am sure that given time he could make this reed or another play just fine but I was in rush to get going and its only a week or so before I get my pipes back. So I could practice with this as is but its sharp.... and for some reason .... it kind of irritates me. Adjusting the insertion position does not fix the problem enough. I put a coat hangar up the chanter bore (a rush) and that got me back to about a 1/4 note sharp.

But I would love to fix this with a reed and no rushes. I think it would help me understand reeds a bit better. And I find it fun making reeds.

So.... if a chanter is playing overall sharp what can I do to flatten it up.... smaller diameter staple?.... shorter staple?.... smaller/larger staple eye.... differently shaped reeds (longer, shorter, wider, narrower. I am guessing that I want to increase reed air volume but I am not sure?

Hints?

[PhilD]

I can't stand playing on an out of tune chanter, in fact I find it impossible. Its certainly not an enjoyable experience for anyone.

[ImNotIrish]

I gave my concert D concert Chanter to Brad Angus to mate up with a full set. He let me borrow another new D concert pitch chanter so I could keep practicing while I wait. I brought my collection of reeds that I have been making over the past few months. There are about a half a dozen of them that work fine in my old chanter. There are also a couple of Brads that he made for the older chanter that also work well.

Every one of my reeds and his were about a half a note flat on the new borrowed chanter. So....He whipped together a reed quickly for me that was not fully finished and its also flatter than I want it. I am sure that given time he could make this reed or another play just fine but I was in rush to get going and its only a week or so before I get my pipes back. So I could practice with this as is but its flat.... and for some reason .... it kind of irritates me. Adjusting the insertion position does not fix the problem enough. I put a coat hangar up the chanter bore (a rush) and that got me back to about a 1/4 note flat.

But I would love to fix this with a reed and no rushes. I think it would help me understand reeds a bit better. And I find it fun making reeds.

So.... if a chanter is playing overall flat what can I do to sharpen it up.... smaller diameter staple?.... shorter staple?.... smaller/larger staple eye.... differently shaped reeds (longer, shorter, wider, narrower. I am guessing that I want to reduce reed air volume but I am not sure?

Hints?

Reed too long. Trim blades (may compromise bottom 'D.'
Cut/Trim staple end. (according to Dave Hegarty). I also heard somewhere that narrower blades are sharper, but I am no expert, so best to check with a professional!

Arbo

[ausdag]

I I put a coat hangar up the chanter bore (a rush) and that got me back to about a 1/4 note flat.

So.... if a chanter is playing overall flat what can I do to sharpen it up....

Are you saying that by putting a rush up the bore you actually raised the pitch 1/4 note?? As far as I'm aware a rush is used to flatten the pitch. What happens if you take the rush out?

[bobkeenan]

I I put a coat hangar up the chanter bore (a rush) and that got me back to about a 1/4 note flat.

So.... if a chanter is playing overall flat what can I do to sharpen it up....

Are you saying that by putting a rush up the bore you actually raised the pitch 1/4 note?? As far as I'm aware a rush is used to flatten the pitch. What happens if you take the rush out?

You are totally right. I was confusing my flats and sharps. The chanter is too SHARP not flat. I feel kind of stupid for the post now. Thats why added the rush helped.

[Ted]

If the chanter is too sharp to begin with, you are fighting an uphill battle to drop the pitch. You can only do so much with reeds. Bore dominates over what the reed can do. In other words, if the chanter is made sharp, you might reed it somewhat flatter, but will experience major intonation problems to flatten it further than the bore wants to play. Rushes are your best hope, along with a flat a reed as the chanter can handle.

[bobkeenan]

I keep all of my failed reeds. There was a time where I was experimenting with wider longer reeds and none of them worked on my older Angus chanter. So I took one of those and only inserted it just enough to hold it firmly. And it was getting a lot closer without the chanter rush. But there were some other issues like back D weak and a little flat. B a little flat and upper octave a little flat and hard to get to. I did some scraping at the heart and some sanding and it improved it some but not enough.

So.... its a rainy day in Portland. Time to make a new reed. I am making it somewhat like the angus reeds that work in the old chanter but I am increasing the dia (+.5mm) and length (+3mm) of the staple but just a bit. Slightly higher eye (.3mm). A bit less flattening of the staple over the length ( about 1/3 instead of 1/2) the length. A bit longer ( 3mm) and wider (1mm) reed slip. I used a little larger diameter sanding block (47 to 52mm). And just for laughs I put in a short (3mm) shallow tone chamber.

All of this to increase the internal volume of the reed/staple. Oh and I used some new soft cane from Sampson's..... thinking softer cane equals lower pitch??

I will check it out tonight to see what I get.... probably an abysmal failure. I always start with that level of confidence and work from there.

I will post what I get for anyone interested

[bobkeenan]

Failure.... bottom D was smack on but got progressively flatter from A and up. Back C flat a half note flat. So I worked on reed a bit. Pushed the reed in and now back D is smack on and bottom D is sharp. Looked for a compromise and found nothing that worked. So I could make another half dozen reeds but I think I will go back to Brad's reed. Rush it. And will be happy till my old chanter comes back.

[Cathy Wilde]

If the rest of that reed you just made is OK, maybe you could just rush the bell note? Mine has those days every now and again, and when it does I just tear a business card in half top to bottom, fold it, tuck it into the bottom of the chanter, and life is good.

[PJ]

Try using a wider reed-head. Whatever the width of the reed heads you're currently using, add 1mm and see if that brings the reed down a bit.

This will mean gouging and scraping a new reed-head.

[Preston L Howard]

Hi Bob, fellow Portland piper here.
Are you tuning the chanter with a tuner? Or to another instrument perhaps? Uilleann pipes were intended to be and remain, primarily, a solo instrument. In the old days a piper would reed the chanter to suit the chanter, and more often than not this would result in a pitch that was anything but A 440. Take a listen to some Leo Rowsome records with your tuner out and primed. Take a listen to any of the old Chicago pipers from the early 20th century (Michael Carney, Patrick Fitzpatrick, Tom Ennis, etc.) they're all pitching in at dangerously near Eb! These guys, who were such masters that even today no one has surpassed them, let the chanter speak for itself and then pitched the regs accordingly.

Understanding that piping expectations have changed over the last 40 years, it is common for pipers to seek out that perfect concert pitch for playing in sessions and groups. But given the level of voodoo and witchcraft required to achieve "perfect pitch" on our beloved instrument, I feel it is completely acceptable to ask our fiddle and flute playing friends to turn their pegs and grease up their slides for half a second. Accordions on the other hand... They're rarely in tune to begin with either, so, crap shoot.

The other thing to think about is experimenting with different fingerings and pressures. The chanter AND the regs require a balance of extremely nuanced pressure variations throughout the full range of notes and chord combinations as well as fingering alternatives. I like to think of the bag arm of a piper much like the bow arm of a fiddle player, the subtle movements and pressure changes greatly impact the tone, timbre, and pitch of the entire instrument. Also try, in conjunction with these things, lifting the chanter off the apron at varying degrees and opportunities. With much practice and experimentation you will find that there are scores of ways to play each note on the chanter with a wide variety of pitches and timbres.

Anywho, my main point here is, find the reed that produces the best timbre and ease of range and compromise on pitch a little for now, and don't be afraid of rushes (coat hangers are a bit over kill, start with the D string from a guitar or something similar). Remember what the pipes are and what they are not, and if uilleann pipes were easy they would be called guitars, just sayin'.....

Cheers!

-Preston

You should come out to a club meeting, we're thinking of starting them up again here soon.

[mke_mick]

Not sure this applies here or not, but I've read in this very forum that some chanters are made with a flat-sounding bottom D, to compensate for the fact that hard (bottom) D tends to be sharper than regular bottom D (with the end result that hard bottom D is in tune, and normal bottom D is slightly flat.

It jibes with my own experience.

--Mick

[bobkeenan]

Preston... Thanks... Good advice. And I have switched to a D string rush... Much better. And I have noticed how I can adjust bag pressure and bring things in tune. But.... I did not have to do that on the my real chanter with my reed..... I got spoiled. So I am still thinking there is a reed solution here. So I am embarking on a reed quest. I am in the process of making 6 reeds with slightly different staples. I got some advice from Ted Anderson so I am trying to make some of his "standard reeds" to go with the staples. If nothing else I ought to learn some more about reeds after this. If I am lucky Brad will return my good chanter soone so I can get to just playing and not fiddling with reeds.

[ImNotIrish]

Preston... Thanks... Good advice. And I have switched to a D string rush... Much better. And I have noticed how I can adjust bag pressure and bring things in tune. But.... I did not have to do that on the my real chanter with my reed..... I got spoiled. So I am still thinking there is a reed solution here. So I am embarking on a reed quest. I am in the process of making 6 reeds with slightly different staples. I got some advice from Ted Anderson so I am trying to make some of his "standard reeds" to go with the staples. If nothing else I ought to learn some more about reeds after this. If I am lucky Brad will return my good chanter soone so I can get to just playing and not fiddling with reeds.

Unless you live in a vacuum, you will always be 'fiddling' with reeds!
Arbo