Whistling Newbie - playing with musical order

[Jleo Fipple]

The melody is as it should be but when I created the accompaniment on my keyboard I used minor 3rds in the "D" and "A" major chords in other words I played "Dmin" and "Amin" and this was the result

Sally Gardens (Part A) Slowly
The accompaniment is formed with Dmin Amin and G major. First thing to note I am aware there is a palpable dissonance between the accompaniment and melody but with this slow melody piece it's strangely acceptable to my ears more so than the major chord accompaniment that I had tried earlier. Is my hearing whacked or Am I just going potty? you decide!!

Listen on You Tube

[benhall.1]

The chords just sound wrong to me. I mean, there's no such thing as "wrong" when it comes to musical choices, but if there were, this would be it.

I suppose one definition of "wrong" might be something which is unidiomatic, and that's what these chords are. A tune like this is part of a tradition which does not put minor chords against tunes implying the major. Well, not that I can recall, and certainly not as a constant thing throughout the piece.

Just one more thing, and I appreciate you haven't asked about this, but you did put this out there and ask for opinions, so I feel it's fair game. This tune, at whatever speed, has a distinct rhythm. Playing it at the speed you are gives you a chance to really learn to count and get that rhythm right. Which is exactly what my advice would now be.

[Cayden]

Jleo Fipple,
I concur with Benhall.1 on your clip, no disrespect intended.

Cayden

[Nanohedron]

Twisting it chordally like that - and dragging it out so - works really well conceptually as a score for a spooky movie with lost souls or the like in an Irish setting, though. That's the first thing that came to mind for me.

[Feadoggie]

Twisting it chordally like that - and dragging it out so - works really well conceptually as a score for a spooky movie with lost souls or the like in an Irish sett

Something about the spirit of William Butler Yeats turning in his grave might do. Eh? Or something with a plot about a ship lost at sea haunted by The Maids of the Mourne Shore perhaps?

Feadoggie

[Nanohedron]

Exactly. Or some Irish town where dark, preternatural, drowned-looking street urchins with bare feet and flat caps stare at you with dead eyes from out of back alleys or at crossroads and then pounce and suck your brains out because they're not really alive, as we count it. Stuff like that.

[Feadoggie]

Don't take me too seriously, Nano. I was just bein' a wiseacre. I do agree with you that the performance presented by the OP was "haunting", so much so as to cause nightmares.

William Butler Yeats wrote the poem that is the basis for the song "Down By the Salley Gardens". Surely he's turning in his grave. And the popular version of the song we all know used the tune "The Maids of the Mourne Shore" as the melody to which the poem was set. And I would think that the maids are in mourning too. That song has a bit of tradition behind it.

Feadoggie

[MTGuru]

I am aware there is a palpable dissonance between the accompaniment and melody

Yes, but there's more to it than that.

The chords i=DFA, IV=GBd, v=ACE outline the modal I-IV-V of a D Dorian scale (DEFGABCD). Which is fine. But playing F# against Dorian F-nat gives me the impression not of a calculated dissonance, but of simply playing the wrong note. And it's a critical note, too, because the 3rd (F) defines whether you're in major or minor tonality.

Also, there's a reason that Dorian harmonies tend to avoid the IV in I-VI-V in favor of i-bVII-v, and Dorian melodies tend to gap the 6th degree of the scale. In DDor, the B of the IV chord forms a harsh tritone with the all-important 3rd (that is, F-nat to B is a tritone).

It can be fun to change up major to minor tunes, and vice versa. Playing with the ambiguity of F#/F-nat in the context of Just Intonation can also be interesting. But you can't always drop an alien cadence and chords on top of an unaltered melody and expect it to sound anything but bizarre, and not necessarily in a good way.

[Peter Duggan]

Also, there's a reason that Dorian harmonies tend to avoid the IV in I-VI-V in favor of i-bVII-v, and Dorian melodies tend to gap the 6th degree of the scale. In DDor, the B of the IV chord forms a harsh tritone with the all-important 3rd (that is, F-nat to B is a tritone).

But it can also add some memorable colour (as in Sealed with a Kiss, which has its Dorian moments in a broadly minor context).

It can be fun to change up major to minor tunes, and vice versa. Playing with the ambiguity of F#/F-nat in the context of Just Intonation can also be interesting. But you can't always drop an alien cadence and chords on top of an unaltered melody and expect it to sound anything but bizarre, and not necessarily in a good way.

For good bizarre (?), try the Charles Ives challenge... singing the Swanee River in Eb to an accompaniment in C (which his father apparently got him to do as a kid, possibly half-explains his music, and is definitely a useful trick for demonstrating bitonality!).

[benhall.1]

What a coincidence! To cheer us up, me and the SO have just this very minute finished listening to "Central Park in The Dark (in 'The Good Old Summertime')". One of my all-time favourite pieces of music.

[Jleo Fipple]

The melody is as it should be but when I created the accompaniment on my keyboard I used minor 3rds in the "D" and "A" major chords in other words I played "Dmin" and "Amin" and this was the result

Sally Gardens (Part A) Slowly
The accompaniment is formed with Dmin Amin and G major. First thing to note I am aware there is a palpable dissonance between the accompaniment and melody but with this slow melody piece it's strangely acceptable to my ears more so than the major chord accompaniment that I had tried earlier. Is my hearing whacked or Am I just going potty? you decide!!

Listen on You Tube

I am aware there is a palpable dissonance between the accompaniment and melody

Yes, but there's more to it than that.

The chords i=DFA, IV=GBd, v=ACE outline the modal I-IV-V of a D Dorian scale (DEFGABCD). Which is fine. But playing F# against Dorian F-nat gives me the impression not of a calculated dissonance, but of simply playing the wrong note. And it's a critical note, too, because the 3rd (F) defines whether you're in major or minor tonality.

Also, there's a reason that Dorian harmonies tend to avoid the IV in I-VI-V in favor of i-bVII-v, and Dorian melodies tend to gap the 6th degree of the scale. In DDor, the B of the IV chord forms a harsh tritone with the all-important 3rd (that is, F-nat to B is a tritone).

It can be fun to change up major to minor tunes, and vice versa. Playing with the ambiguity of F#/F-nat in the context of Just Intonation can also be interesting. But you can't always drop an alien cadence and chords on top of an unaltered melody and expect it to sound anything but bizarre, and not necessarily in a good way.

Thank you for the effort but I'm a beginner non of your reply makes much sense to me.

Twisting it chordally like that - and dragging it out so - works really well conceptually as a score for a spooky movie with lost souls or the like in an Irish setting, though. That's the first thing that came to mind for me.

What a coincidence! To cheer us up, me and the SO have just this very minute finished listening to "Central Park in The Dark (in 'The Good Old Summertime')". One of my all-time favourite pieces of music.

Ives: "The Unanswered Question"

My Dixon Trad's F sharp and pretty much everything else was somewhat flat from the cold that's why this piece sounded so darn good [[[Click Here For Tuner Output]]]

[MTGuru]

Thank you for the effort but I'm a beginner non[e] of your reply makes much sense to me.

Well, exactly.

But actually, my last paragraph ought to make sense to you. If not, you should look into the terms: major, minor, cadence, and Just Intonation. All these are basic for understanding trad music and harmony, especially if you're interested in playing around with accompaniments.

[Jleo Fipple]

I am aware there is a palpable dissonance between the accompaniment and melody

Yes, but there's more to it than that.

The chords i=DFA, IV=GBd, v=ACE outline the modal I-IV-V of a D Dorian scale (DEFGABCD). Which is fine. But playing F# against Dorian F-nat gives me the impression not of a calculated dissonance, but of simply playing the wrong note. And it's a critical note, too, because the 3rd (F) defines whether you're in major or minor tonality.

Also, there's a reason that Dorian harmonies tend to avoid the IV in I-VI-V in favor of i-bVII-v, and Dorian melodies tend to gap the 6th degree of the scale. In DDor, the B of the IV chord forms a harsh tritone with the all-important 3rd (that is, F-nat to B is a tritone).

It can be fun to change up major to minor tunes, and vice versa. Playing with the ambiguity of F#/F-nat in the context of Just Intonation can also be interesting. But you can't always drop an alien cadence and chords on top of an unaltered melody and expect it to sound anything but bizarre, and not necessarily in a good way.

Thank you for the effort but I'm a beginner non[e] of your reply makes much sense to me.

Well, exactly.

But actually, my last paragraph ought to make sense to you. If not, you should look into the terms: major, minor, cadence, and Just Intonation. All these are basic for understanding trad music and harmony, especially if you're interested in playing around with accompaniments.

Cheers I'll have a look see for sure and my local ITM group is getting together shortly so I'll take a print out down and see if one of the senior group members can enlighten me also.

[MTGuru]

Cheers I'll have a look see for sure and my local ITM group is getting together shortly so I'll take a print out down and see if one of the senior members can enlighten me also.

Or just do some reading and research. I'd usually suggest Wikipedia, but the articles on those topics are too detailed for an intro. Something equivalent to the Edly's/Dummies books would be better.

“An expert is a man who tells you a simple thing in a confused way in such a fashion
as to make you think the confusion is your own fault.” William Castle

"A non-expert is a man who thinks his own ignorance is the fault of experts." - MTGuru

[Jleo Fipple]

Don't take me too seriously, Nano. I was just bein' a wiseacre. I do agree with you that the performance presented by the OP was "haunting", so much so as to cause nightmares.

William Butler Yeats wrote the poem that is the basis for the song "Down By the Salley Gardens".
Feadoggie

FWIW, Yates based his poem on an existing traditional song.

Source
Down By The Salley Gardens by William Butler Yeats
First published as 'An Old Song Resung' in The Wanderings of Oisin and other Poems (1889).
Originally an old Irish folk song, Yeats turned this into a poem as a dedication to oral tradition.