Question about DIY whistles

[megapop]

Hi everybody,

I'm trying my luck making some simple PVC whistles; and I was wondering if there is any way to get rid of that extra push needed for the 2nd B (on the D whistle). I know that this is quite common to some extent when the diameter is getting a bit larger, but in my case it's kind of extreme. It's not the shape of the blade or the size of the window, I think; register transition is smooth and everything, up to the 2nd A (usually, but at least up to the G definitively), but the B is really, really hard to blow (if at all!). When I diminish the window size until it's okay, the rest of the lower register is hardly playable.

So, what could be the reason for this? The height of the windway maybe? I use to sand the fipple little by little until the sound is decent; I guess taking away more would make it rather worse than better, wouldn't it? ... maybe a question of to taper or not to taper?

Oh, and these are the dimensions of the pipe I use: the inner diameter is 13mm (~0.51") and the wall thickness is about 1mm (~0.04")... for the D whistle again, but other diameters for other keys produce the same issue.

Thank you very much for any help!

[Feadoggie]

All of the variables that you mention contribute to the ease of playing the upper notes in some manner - bore, window size, windway height, ramp angle, etc. Even the finger hole sizes matter. So the whistle needs to be viewed as a system.

It's not an easy thing to assess your issues without having your whistle at hand or at least seeing some very detailed pictures.

When you hear folks talking about voicing a whistle one of the things you are looking to balance is the strength of the low notes and the ease of hitting the upper notes. It really gets into art if not wizardry at times. Make a few hundred whistles and you'll get things figured out. Well, that's be one way to go about it.

What you are trying to do mostly is to get the jet of air coming out of the windway exit to be focused at the blade and split so it oscillates making the tones. How much air and how it is split matters. One thing that most beginners overlook is the edge of the plug and the edge of the windway roof at the exit. In my experience each whistle is different to a slight degree. Playing with the plug, how far it is from the blade, how the edge is finished, the finish of the plug, the finish of the windway walls, the length of the windway, etc. matter quite a lot. You have to play with these to get things to play easily above the high G. And you are right, you work on the edge of the plug until you get things right. Too much and you need to make a new plug. It's a dance of details. That'd be my first suggestion for a place to start.

Hole size matters as I said. Higher note frequencies need holes of a larger size to speak easily compared to the notes of the first octave. The turnover time between notes of different frequencies depends on proper holes size and shape. You may read about cut-off frequencies to understand this a bit. Basically you size the holes to exceed the cut-off frequencies (frequency of the second octave notes) for each tone they will sound. Too small a hole and the high notes will be tough to sound and not stable.

Hope that helps a bit.

Bet you can't make just one whistle!

Feadoggie

[brewerpaul]

In my own whistles I find that the single most important factor in balancing high and low octaves is the bevel or rounding at the window end of the fipple plug.
Try making one with no bevel at all. You'll probably find that the upper octave including that B note are nice and easy, but the low notes are weak and want to immediately hop up into the upper register. Add a tiny bit of bevel and try playing again. The lower notes should be stronger. Keep making TINY adjustments until it plays the way you want. Once you cross over a certain threshold, the low notes will be really solid but the upper notes will be difficult. Then it's time to make a new plug and start again...

[megapop]

Thanks a lot, Feadoggie and brewerpaul!
Well... "strength of the low notes and the ease of hitting the upper notes"... yeah, that's exactly the problem indeed . I've experimented a lot with shaping the window and the blade (also by tweaking "ordinary" cheapies), so I think I can calculate at least these variables quite well; or at least I think I know which modification has which effect. Concerning the finger holes, I am currently just glad if I can get those Basmatis reasonably into tune over both 8ves. So yes, gotta make a hundred or two, I guess!

Also thanks for the beveling tip! I haven't tried to bevel the fipple block yet; the high B is the problem, so wouldn't beveling make it even worse? Or should I reduce the window size and sharpen the blade until this is okay, and then bevel to make the lower tones sound again? I'm not so enthusiastic about modifications on the fipple block, you know, as shaping it is by far the most time-consuming part (I'm currently using beech sticks)... though this is a really interesting possibility, I haven't even thought of this yet!

Anyway, in the meanwhile I tried something that I really could have figured out earlier myself, which is focusing the airstream better at the blade by applying ears to the window. This really made it somewhat better so far!
So thank you both again; of course further advice is still very welcome!

[Feadoggie]

Yes do work on the plug. I agree with Paul. We were both trying to get you looking at the same things I expect. Whether you use a bevel or round the edge of the plug it is necessary to help spread the air jet smoothly. What works for you , works for you. Chances are many of us do things a little different. But that's where you should be working. Also there is no reason to fastidiously align the top exit and the plug face as you might think. If you make perfect parts that will work but if there is any kind of a hard edge on either you may want to move the plug in and out to aim the air jet better. While sizing the window smaller will help the high notes, it has a detrimental effect on the volume overall and the strength of the low notes. Moving the plug can help more in my experience.

You have not described the design of your head. Pictures maybe? You did say that the tube wall is 1mm. That's fine for the finger tube, obviously, but if that is the wall at the window it is not the best, IMO. If the tube wall thickness determines the depth of the sides of the window then yes organ ears will be needed to protect the window so the oscillations will be stable. And that becomes more critical as you increase the velocity of the air stream to hit the high notes. It's all interplay of many variable that need to add up to a whistle that works well.

You say that shaping a new plug is the most time consuming part. I am assuming then that yo do not have a lathe to speed things along then. I used a hand drill with a 1/2 chuck clamped to a work stand to turn plugs before I moved on to a lathe. It helped quite a bit over the hand shaping methods I tried.

Feadoggie

[chrisp]

Hi megapop,

Feadoggie and brewerpaul have, as experts in their field covered most of the variables. Although not in their league I have made quite a few PVC whistles and experimented with a few variables. I have found that if the fipple block is further away from the blade the harder you have to blow to reach the upper register. You get the opposite effect if the fipple is too close to the blade, then the lower register becomes difficult to reach requiring less air and not a strong bell note. I'm not sure whether I'm right but a bevel edge to the fipple block will create a slight redirection or bending to the air passing over it, this is called the "Coanda Effect" shown here in this video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AvLwqRCbGKY

To my experience, a beveled fipple helps to stabilize the lower register (I might be wrong), which means that the fipple block can then be moved slightly closer to the blade enabling a slightly easier higher register, but also retaining a good bell note. Feadoggie and brewerpaul have already mentioned, tiny adjustments which can make huge differences, window width, length and wall height are all important variables amongst many more.

Creating ears to the the window concentrates the airflow and changes the tone somewhat. Many church organs have these ears on the sides of the window providing a different tonal quality. Some whistles have these ears, I think some copeland whistles have these. Other whistle heads have deep windows, my Sindt has a very deep window compared to the rest of the whistle. A deep walled window will give a similar effect as ears.

I think whistle making is an interesting science, it's amazing how small tweaks can change the instrument so much. Feadoggie and Brewerpaul are the experts here, but I just thought I'd throw in what I've experienced (to be taken with a pinch of salt). It would be interesting to hear what Jerry Freeman has to say, I've got a few of his whistles and his understanding of tweaking makes his whistles sing.

Good luck

[megapop]

Feadoggie, unfortunately I don't have the possibility to take pictures; I'll try to borrow a camera somewhere these days. However, basically the design of the mouthpiece is just cutting out a rectangular strip from the tube (as windway and window), plugging the fipple there, and putting another piece of pipe over the fipple, around the body tube (becoming the top of the mouthpiece; now extended along the window as ears)... I guess you know what I mean, I think it's kind of a standard design regarding self-made PVC whistles.

I shaping of the fipple is maybe not as bad as it might have sounded; the sticks I've got almost fit into the pipe, I just have to sand them a bit. So my only tool is a sheet of sandpaper here... and a bit trial and error on the fipple won't ruin the work of weeks. Alright then. And of course, moving the plug (mouthpiece top) is what I do all the time, that's just what I meant with varying the window size.

Edit: Hi chrisp, I just saw your post...
The ears seem to be really necessary, because (as Feadoggie supposed) the walls of the window are just the 1mm of the tube. And compensating a beveled plug with a downsized window sounds really good, that's just the answer of my question in my previous post... so thanks a lot for sharing your experience, too!

[Feadoggie]

I shaping of the fipple is maybe not as bad as it might have sounded; the sticks I've got almost fit into the pipe, I just have to sand them a bit.

Sounds ike your design is siimilar to Guido Gonzato's design. Notching and extending the outer mouthpiece works well IMO. I did that on a lot of my early whistle.

Here's another thought since you are using what sounds like off-the-shelf dowels fitted as plugs into a thin walled plastic pipe. You don't want the plug to be too tight in the plastic tube. It will cause the tube to stretch a bit. That results in a windway floor that is a tiny bit higher than the bottom of the labium. The only way to counteract that would be to undercut the labium. So think about that as well.

Feadoggie

[chrisp]

I don't know which type of whistle design you have been working on, but out of all the different designs I have tried the GG whistle design has worked best for me http://www.ggwhistles.com/howto/ I have made some lovely sounding whistles from Guido's design, but changed the cap design slightly

To create a higher walled window from the GG design, I extended the cap over the wind-way down to the the start of the blade and then cut out the exact same size of the window in the cap. This gives a double walled height to the sides of the window and definitely improves the tonal quality. If you look on his drawing you can see that his cap stops at the top of the window, I simply extended the length of the cap down to the bottom of the window and then cut out the window size in the cap. I hope that makes sense?

Edit: looks like feadoggie beat me to it

[Feadoggie]

Yes, we're on the same track, Chrisp.

This is a photo of the heads on a few of my early whistles. It sounds like you have figured out how to make the wals around the window thicker already but it's worth illustrating for others here.

You can see where on has a collar that stops at the top of the window and the other two are notched and extend along the sides of the window. If you look at a Susato Kildare they use the same type of configuration. Their new Oriole does not however.

Keep in mind that Susato uses thicker walled material than you are presently using.

Feadoggie

[megapop]

Aye, that's exactly the way I make my ears (I also tried to explain it somewhere above, but a picture's worth a thousand words : ). And indeed, I haven't considered the plug-not-to-tight point yet! It hasn't been a problem so far though, I think I made it not too bad intuitively, or I just sanded the windway a bit more.

Now I tried some beveling on some plugs, with rather unsatisfying results. For example, one whistle I made had a halfway acceptable balance between the registers; the higher notes were not too hard to blow, and the lower half of the first register was a bit weak and "flippy", but playable (windway length: 22mm/.87", window length: 4.5mm/.18"). I beveled the plug a very little bit, and the lower notes didn't become noticeably stronger, but now the higher ones were significantly harder to blow. Diminishing the window size made it about like before again. I beveled the plug a bit more, now the lower notes became somewhat stronger and forgiving (with the original window configuration), but the higher notes......... and, of course, this made the whistle louder, too, which was not intended. I mean, stronger notes don't necessarily need to be louder, do they?

Now, my question here is: Should I bevel the plug just even more, adjusting the window size down to, say, 3mm or something? - From my little experience so far, as long as the bevel/window-relation is adjusted proportionally, neither the sound nor the playing characteristics seem to change noticeably. Or, in other words, should it make a difference concerning the playing characteristics if I beveled the plug or increased the window size? If so, of course adjusting both factors against each other would make sense... Or did I just do something wrong (beveled angle is 45°)?

[fearfeasog]

oh don't bother with all that fipple making mouthpiece nonsense. just get a 3D printer and make THIS:

http://www.thingiverse.com/thing:20948

I'm sure it sounds wonderful.

[megapop]

Not worth the effort, fearfeasog. In a couple of years we'll have replicators. FWIW.

[Feadoggie]

oh don't bother with all that fipple making mouthpiece nonsense. just get a 3D printer and make THIS:

Make your own 3D printer first! http://pinterest.com/finklean/diy-3d-printers/

[Tommy]

Hi everybody,
When I diminish the window size until it's okay, the rest of the lower register is hardly playable.
So, what could be the reason for this? The height of the windway maybe? I use to sand the fipple little by little until the sound is decent; I guess taking away more would make it rather worse than better, wouldn't it? ... maybe a question of to taper or not to taper?
Thank you very much for any help!

Make only straight wind ways until you have some that play. Make tapered wind ways later. Your trying to change to many variables right now and straight wind ways play fine when every thing else is good. Change from wood plugs to something more consistent. Wood is ok if it is very smooth. To make them smooth sand with 400 grit or higher.
Then wet the wood so it will swell. Let the plug dry or dry with a hair dryer. Then sand the swelling down and wet it again. After about three times most wood can be made glass smooth. On one end of the plug make a cross mark like a pie so there are four sections. Leave one section blank and mark the other three with straight lines. l, ll, lll. Now you have reference to four different floor surfaces. Try the plug with all four sections at the same distance. If they all sound the same-great.

Next leave the blank section alone and very slightly bevel (l) just enough to remove the corner. Bevel (ll) a little more and then more on (lll). Now try the plug in all four positions. When one of them plays the best address the blade. Bevel the bottom of the blade so slightly that all your doing is removing the corner. The plug bevel and the blade bevel give strength to the low notes. The distance from the plug to the blade determines the second octave.