Highest price ever (?) on an anonymous German flute

[jemtheflute]

I haven't said anything 'cause I'm a big fan of his and don't want to get "Jemmed". Pat

"Outrageously huge wink" smiley required........
Or should that be "ironically blowing a kiss"?

[Casey Burns]

I think that this nugget in Grey's listing says at all:

This is an extremely fine instrument. It is very agile and responsive and has great intonation. And it is far less expensive than a newly made 8-key Irish flute.

Add to this Grey superbly demonstrating these features. My bottom line is who cares if its an anonymous German flute? If it works well, then its worth it and a bargain as an 8 keyed flute. Modern keyed flutes go for much more. I suspect the buyer is someone who intends to play it.

Certainly there are several other less expensive German-made and similar flutes out there. I have seen many of these and several (well, most of them) were basket cases. I've seen some that have been hot`rodded into good players as an inexpensive way to get into an 8 keyed flute and I've hot-rodded a few myself. If this flute plays well compared with many of the others than the price is not something to get tweaked or outraged about. Again, I feel like the buyer got a good deal.

There are also other German and similar Austrian flutes out there that should command better prices, especially in other markets such as players in 19th and early 20th century style orchestras. A good and well made and well cared for vintage instrument of any type should appreciate in value. Again my bottom line is if it plays well or is junk. I am actually a little more surprised when potentially good instruments don't command a better price sometimes.

Congrats to Grey for getting a good price for it and congrats to the buyer for getting a well playing 8 keyed flute with a little bit of recent history to it!

Casey

[jim stone]

I will add the only things I feel competent to comment upon. I've taken a number of private lessons from Grey as
well as a long workshop, largely on ornamentation, at the St. Louis Tional. I've also attended a number of sessions
he's led in Bloomington. Grey is a nice fellow, low
key and, if anything, self-effacing. I've never seen the slightest hint that he is interested in having
disciples or, for that matter, that he has any. Certainly his teaching manner is kindly, thoughtful
and not at all charismatic; same goes for his manner in leading sessions. One of the more unassertive
and pleasant leaders I've seen. Nor have I seen anything like smarmy self-promotion.
Occasionally he's sent me e mails about where he is playing, house concerts, etc, which read straightforwardly
as the effort of a working musician trying to make ends meet. FWIW.

[Mr.Gumby]

A few of us probably have our own experiences to tell and some may even consider being added to a mailing list without asking for it or being given the possibility of an opt-out enough to qualify as smarmy self-promotion.

It's probably best though to limit the discussion to the matter at hand. Sleeping dogs and all that.

[jim stone]

I can certainly see not wanting to be added to a mailing list without choosing it, especially without a way of opting out.
Certainly sounds unskillful. Thanks.

[crookedtune]

It's probably best though to limit the discussion to the matter at hand. Sleeping dogs and all that.

Passive-aggressive usually wakes them up.


What about consumer choice are we having problems with? Nice flute, attractive to some and maybe not others. Seller and buyer came to an agreement. Ever onward and upward we go.

[tompipes]

Nice flute, attractive to some and maybe not others. Seller and buyer came to an agreement. Ever onward and upward we go.

Exactly, it's a lot of fuss over nothing.

If someone wants to spend a million quid on badgers that's their own business.
I've seen a chanter for sale lately for $3,500. Are you going to harass that seller and buyer too? "You'd get 3 new ones for that...etc, blah blah....

Again, any instrument is only worth whatever anyone is willing to pay for it and it's only as good as the hands that play it too.

Tommy

[monkeymonk]

Passive-aggressive usually wakes them up.


What about consumer choice are we having problems with? Nice flute, attractive to some and maybe not others. Seller and buyer came to an agreement. Ever onward and upward we go.

I think that there is a chance that, knowing the going rate of anonymous german flutes with poorly repaired cracks, the buyer may have chosen differently. I agree that the flute's playability increases it's value but 2 grand is a bit above that. I also trust what people say about the seller being aware of the market value of this flute and knowing that i don't think it's right to charge so much. Free market or not.
The flute should come with a copy of the video so the buyer can sell the flute back out in case it does not work out.

[jemtheflute]

Sure, everyone has the right to be a sucker/mug. I've been one myself. But I'm not too sure anyone has a "right" to try to make a sucker out of me. When it happens and, discovering it has happened, I know it's my own fault, I shrug philosophically and try to learn from the experience. When it turns out someone has deliberately conned me, well, I feel rather differently about that, whether or not I have any recourse in the matter.

Sometimes, in particular circumstances, paying way over the odds for something is no-one else's fault, down simply to the ignorance/poor judgement/over-enthusiasm etc. of the punter. That's his problem.

Sometimes sellers genuinely don't know what it is they're selling and over- or under-sell. They may get lucky and make a killing, or sell something worth far more for a pittance. In the former case, fair enough - absolutely a case of caveat emptor, in the latter, a pity, but tough (though, where I could do so, I've tried to help folk avoid that happening to them in the past).

When a seller knows exactly what they're selling and asks a rip-off price for it, if they're lucky enough to gull an ill-informed punter into buying at that level, yes, the punter is partly at fault, but that doesn't let the seller off morally or make them a nice person. How many of us are really comfortable about (and have never been victims of) unscrupulous, exploitative sellers of whatever goods or services who charge seriously excessive prices? How many of us would sell in such a fashion ourselves?

I repeat something I wrote up-thread. I do not know which of the scenarios outlined immediately above applies to GL in this case and therefore pass no judgement. But either way, even if the buyer is happy with the flute s/he has bought, I do feel appalled at the situation and on their behalf. Regardless of any "fault" and of anyone's morality, I am in absolutely no doubt that the buyer has not got fair value for their money.

[Nanohedron]

The mods have been thinking about this whole thread. Suffice it to say that there are a few things, and not just one, to tackle. I agree with MTGuru that without Grey's input we are left idly - and merely - speculating about the sale in question. Less useful yet are suggestions about his character in the face of our bafflement at it all. We don't know.

That said, at this point I think that such discussions - while they may veer into the distasteful - may prove useful to those considering a sale or a purchase but are faced with their inexperience; the covering of such issues as what has been a pricing norm (and thereby one may consider what is fair), why you think you should or shouldn't give a fig about it, the fact that some flutes are just plain remarkable beyond their species and/or some buyers will be satisfied enough to not blink at paying a remarkable price whatever we think, and that ultimately buyers are responsible for their choices and so caution and knowledge are their friends, etc., are all things that are good for the prospective buyer/seller to know about.

Just so long as (per CCCP #8) this sort of public discussion sticks to nonmember outside offers/transactions, we should be fine. I won't say it's the mods' final answer yet, but so far it seems to work. Meanwhile I appeal to all to refrain from character judgments and stick to market considerations.

Thanks. - Mod

[MTGuru]

An anecdote: On at least one occasion, I paid way over market price for an eBay item. "Why?", someone may ask.

It was an item with strong childhood memories and personal associations, and something I had wanted for 40 years but could never afford. It was long out of production, for 20+ years. Now it came up at a time when I was flush with cash. The thing was in mint, literally pristine condition (which is rare) with all original bits intact. Now that I have it, I use it just about every week.

I'll be darned if I was going to let it go even if I had to pay a hefty premium to win it. I, as the buyer, effectively set the price, knowing full well what I was doing. Both seller and buyer were perfectly happy with the result. I doubt that we ruined the market for the item.

And if a bunch of folks not involved in our private transaction had criticized either me or the seller online without knowing the very particular circumstances, they would have been told by yours truly to f*** off faster than their heads could spin.

We have no idea yet if this flute was a similar case, or a case of unfair advantage.

The mods have been thinking about this whole thread. Suffice it to say that there are a few things, and not just one, to tackle. I agree with MTGuru that without Grey's input we are left idly - and merely - speculating about the sale in question. Less useful yet are suggestions about his character in the face of our bafflement at it all. We don't know.

Right. Interest in the flute market is certainly part of the hobby for some, and so fair game for discussion. But I think this thread has gone as far as (well, farther than) it needs to, unless someone has something factual to add. Otherwise, a thread lock may be the next step.

[MadmanWithaWhistle]

This whole thread makes me kinda sad. I've had no connection to Grey Larson other than by starting out with his book. Given the obvious care and heart put into the book, and the repeated disclaimers that 'his way was by no means the *only* way' do do things, it was really surprising to hear about people having these sort of interactions with him.

I mentioned this thread to my teacher, asking if she'd ever heard of Grey Larson, and apparently she tried out a flute from him not long ago, and the tenons didn't fit! She sent him an e-mail, and his response was, "Oh, yeah, I noticed that before I sent it out!" Later she and some other players invited him to give a workshop, and apparently he 'gave an incredibly condescending presentation on breathing to people that have been playing longer than him.' So yes, there are people who dislike him.

But some people just have contexts in which they're not at their best, and *everyone* has their flaws. Certainly not everyone likes me! I will, however, continue to respect and admire him as a writer and transcriber of tunes (he chooses some excellent settings for his tunebooks), and I think it does his contributions to the music a disservice to trash him out in front of everyone here, beyond, 'I disagree with his marketing and presentation style'.

Edit: With regard to the pricing issue, in this case I have to say I firmly believe that people should get what they pay for. This isn't like buying a concert flute, where you can walk into a store, try one out and pick the brains of four different flute-sellers in town. For many people, their only trad. connection is through the internet, and certainly their only means of acquiring instruments. I think that since the buyer would have to study long and hard to identify German flutes, repair techniques and pricing for historic instruments, it's not unreasonable to expect a prominent member of the trad community to offer a fair price on an instrument, given that it's hard to learn what a fair price is on your own for these instruments! Hell, how do I know that a Burke whistle is worth 220 dollars? I didn't. I bought one (and found that yes, it was) because people I spoke with spoke highly of Mike Burke, and I trusted him to price his instruments fairly.

[Kevin L. Rietmann]

I've seen a chanter for sale lately for $3,500.

Is is the fellow with the Wooff B? Or a Kenna with gold metalwork and ferrules made from crystallized babies' tears?

I always thought it telling that Rod Cameron made two 8 key models - one after R&R, one after Geo Cloos.

[tompipes]

Is is the fellow with the Wooff B? Or a Kenna with gold metalwork and ferrules made from crystallized babies' tears?

LOL, no its a Froment C chanter.

Tommy