For Ytliek, and anyone else....

[benhall.1]

... no no don't tell me. I suppose it would be all right if you were playing slides.

[MTGuru]

... no no don't tell me. I suppose it would be all right if you were playing slides.

You mean slip jigs.

[StevieJ]

What if the rocks are all slimy and slippery?

What a silly question. Don't cross that river or jump onto those rocks - esp. if anyone is watching or listening. Unless, that is, you are happy making an eejit of yourself.

Edit to clarify: this is not aimed at anyone in particular, certainly not at Arbo. It is better to negotiate slippery rocks (i.e. tricky passages or ornaments) in private until they cease to be treacherous.

[Peter Duggan]

Peter, it was your thread with the "undecided mind" that made me curious how a musician does decide, whether to/or not, to change one's playing, or change the tune. I am curious how you are working it out for yourself, Arbo, and anyone else.

Through years of experience, critical listening to myself and others, plenty of mistakes and misjudgements... and a continuing sense of still not being as good as I should be or sounding quite like I thought!

[ytliek]

I get the tip toe thru the tulips serendipity bit, however, I'm still interested in how Arbo's tune gets worked out... refined more or less

[ImNotIrish]

Peter, it was your thread with the "undecided mind" that made me curious how a musician does decide, whether to/or not, to change one's playing, or change the tune. I am curious how you are working it out for yourself, Arbo, and anyone else.

Imagine yourself as you were when a child of 8 or so, with nothing better to do than scamper down the street. How do you decide when you give a little skip sideways or not step on a crack in the sidewalk or jump with both feet?

Or you're crossing a stream by hopping from rock to rock. There are lots of possibilities. How do you decide which rock to jump onto next?

Answer: You just do it. If you stop and think about it you'll probably end up in the river.

The tunes are the streets and the streams, and the skips and jumps and rocks are things you can do with them. You need to know your tunes, and your rocks as it were. Then just go play - skip, hop and jump with abandon.

Talking of undecided, when I listen to Arbo's clip, the whole thing sounds undecided to me. Like a lot of the time he's not sure what note he's going to play next - let alone what kind of ornament or articulation - with the result that he trips himself up quite frequently. Quite bluntly I think it doesn't bear dissecting.

Arbo, play us a tune you are sure of.

You are absolutely correct! This was a recently learned tune. I think the uncertainty comes from that and the fact that when I tripped up, I just improvised. Please give a listen to the other posted selections as those are tunes I have worked through and are much more familiar with. Not to say the same improv won't happen.... Perhaps you would consider posting one of your 'decided' tunes? The nice thing about this board is that I felt one didn't need to have something perfected to contribute and learn from. Perhaps I am just plain wrong about that? So, here is another take for everyone to consider:

https://www.box.com/s/aibad0k8grji08d8f7ax
Arbo

[ImNotIrish]

Wait! Am I being called an 'eejit' for submitting a 'less than perfect' tune?
Set me straight, please!
Whoa!!
Arbo

[StevieJ]

Wait! Am I being called an 'eejit' for submitting a 'less than perfect' tune?
Set me straight, please!
Whoa!!
Arbo

No, that was not aimed at you in any way. I will clarify the post!

[Infernaltootler]

I got confused as to what we are meant to be doing on this thread?

[hans]

It is better to negotiate slippery rocks (i.e. tricky passages or ornaments) in private until they cease to be treacherous.

Except that one may not notice till pointed out!

Stevie, I liked the image you painted about the child playfully skipping along, trying out new steps in the process. That one makes a fool of oneself sometimes, doing so, is unavoidable. It is part of the creative process, part of not thinking steps out beforehand, and just having a go at them.

Your remark about being undecided, not being sure(-footed), and tripping up I found very helpful, noticing it in my own playing. Indecision, not being sure shows itself as loosing the rhythm, slight slippages in timing, which may only be noticed in retrospect listening to a recording of one's playing, or by others.

Tripping up on attempted ornamentations, or phrases not internalised, is interesting, as it cannot be avoided when learning a tune. I think I cannot avoid it, full stop. Even after learning a tune, fully knowing it by heart. Maybe herein lies one difference of being "pro" or amateur.

@Arbo: thanks for bringing this great tune "Dever the Dancer" back to my awareness, and a happy hour playing it, with it, this morning! It was one of the first tunes I learned and part of never really managed well. But it is such a lovely slip jig, so I will persevere!

[StevieJ]

@Arbo: Take 2 is much better, and worthy of dissection, if that's what people want to do.

@InfernalTootler: A very good question. Are we supposed to go through the tune note by note or bar by bar and ask, why exactly did you use that tap in that particular place and that slide there, and why did you tongue those two consecutive notes in particular? If so, well, go ahead everybody! If not, what was the intention?

@Hans: my skipping child was meant to be an analogy of how a skilled player goes through a tune he or she knows well. Decisions are taken on the fly and on impulse. At this point you're usually not trying out new steps, but letting yourself give an account of the tune the way you happen to feel it at this particular moment.

Of course you may just be playing it on automatic pilot, exactly the way you played it the last 100 times. Sad but often true!

But on reflection I wonder whether the question Ytliek is really asking is this: how does a skilled player develop his or her style, repertoire of tricks, toolkit, to get to the point where the impulse decisions are as automatic as a child's choice of skips or rocks? Is that right, Ytliek?

My answer to that one: it just happens. Don't worry about it, just keep exploring, have faith.

[ytliek]

Except that one may not notice till pointed out!

Hans, thank you for your comments (all of them), as a newbie I miss a lot of the mistakes until pointed out. Your comments reflect exactly what "I" had been interested in regarding Arbo's tune when we had said the word "dissect".

Stevie, I liked the image you painted about the child playfully skipping along, trying out new steps in the process. That one makes a fool of oneself sometimes, doing so, is unavoidable. It is part of the creative process, part of not thinking steps out beforehand, and just having a go at them.

That's it, the creative process where the working out or having a go at it, hinges on the cusp of originality is where my curiosity lies.

Your remark about being undecided, not being sure(-footed), and tripping up I found very helpful, noticing it in my own playing. Indecision, not being sure shows itself as loosing the rhythm, slight slippages in timing, which may only be noticed in retrospect listening to a recording of one's playing, or by others.

Tripping up on attempted ornamentations, or phrases not internalised, is interesting, as it cannot be avoided when learning a tune. I think I cannot avoid it, full stop. Even after learning a tune, fully knowing it by heart. Maybe herein lies one difference of being "pro" or amateur.

@Arbo: thanks for bringing this great tune "Dever the Dancer" back to my awareness, and a happy hour playing it, with it, this morning! It was one of the first tunes I learned and part of never really managed well. But it is such a lovely slip jig, so I will persevere!

Hans (and all) thank you, thank you, thank you.

[ytliek]

But on reflection I wonder whether the question Ytliek is really asking is this: how does a skilled player develop his or her style, repertoire of tricks, toolkit, to get to the point where the impulse decisions are as automatic as a child's choice of skips or rocks? Is that right, Ytliek?

My answer to that one: it just happens. Don't worry about it, just keep exploring, have faith.

That is exactly my interest, scary, can you read my mind? And I have faith in all of you

I don't want to do anything with Arbo's tune that he isn't willing to do. Originally, he had said he would answer questions about his playing " if he could", that he wasn't sure what I was really asking. Arbo was kind enough to post a few tunes and this recent one "Dever the Dancer" got the comments going.

[Infernaltootler]

Ytliek,
if you want to develop a style I don't think you can do it all at once. I'd suggest selecting one small element and use it in a tune you know well. Keep using it until it starts appearing, almost unconciously in other tunes.

Then start on another one. After just a couple of months you'll start finding you are sliding up to notes or cutting very easily.

No one can play like ImnotIrish, no one can play like Ytliek. Just be yourself.

Although I'd add, be in time. If you are in time then everything else will sound fine.

[highwood]

upfront I will admit to not (yet) reading this whole thread - but I want to add a strong opinion of mine:

I would far rather listen to someone taking a risk, going for it so to speak, than playing a polished, perfect performance - which is not to say that I like mistakes or forgive technique problems, but given the player is good (what ever that means) and knows what they are playing I'd rather hear them make a mistake while trying to make it a superlative performance than listen to a 'safe performance'. Very rare but definitely better is: Perfect and going for it.

I think recording technology is largely to blame for 'safe playing', for it is true that listening to a recording of a performance with a mistake multiple times amplifies the mistake and so we aim for no mistakes in recordings, we fix them - but what do we lose in the process? I think this then carries over to live playing, and many musicians play well within their abilities in order to play perfectly as they are able.
Risks are good - at least in live music. But you need to know the music well to take risks. And you need to play (in public) tunes that you can play!

The above remarks come from someone who has more history in the classical field and who loves other music genres partially because the performers are willing to take more risks especially while playing live and enjoy playing the music.