Garry Somers flutes

[bonefamily]

Did this thread turn into a wood vs. delrin debate Sorry, I'm having a hard time following along as I am still relatively new to the side blown flute and am still learning. How would all this information help me in my quest regards to the aluminum flute in topic? After looking around more, I could stretch my budget to fall into a Burns Folk Flute. Would that be a better option for my celtic, renaissance, and medieval music needs? Thanks.

[Peter Duggan]

Well, this is an issue on which I would be glad to be mistaken.
I've played the Copley, forbes, owned two Seeries, but not the
Shannon or the Somers. Look forward to trying them.

Ever considered that you might just be playing too many flutes to give any of them the best chance?

The quotation is taken out of context. I was responding to a specific question: Do i believe that copley's wooden flutes are never better than any of his delrin flutes?
No, I don't believe that, for the reason I gave. I wasn't here arguing that wooden flutes sound better than delrin flutes.

Eh?

This is a sincere question, not a challenge. Really want to know what you think. Do you think that there are no acoustic advantages to wood, all other things being equal.

Yes. It might look and feel nice (yes, I think so too!), but it's ultimately just a bit of ex-tree (with or without ex-dryad)...

So that an Olwell delrin flute (there is one out there) would sound as good as one made of blackwood? Not 'Would it sound bad?' but 'Would it sound as good?'

Yes. While it might feel different to the player, I reckon you couldn't tell which was which (assuming there's an identical blackwood one to compare) in a blind listening test.

All other things being equal, are the acoustical properties of blackwood better, even a bit, than those of delrin?

Different, perhaps. Better (either way), probably not in any definable sense.

Did this thread turn into a wood vs. delrin debate

Apparently, yes.

How would all this information help me in my quest regards to the aluminum flute in topic?

It probably won't, but that's the C&F forums for you!

[jim stone]

Thanks for your opinions, Peter. Would still like to hear from David/Julia, to whom the questions were addressed.
We've been corresponding for years and he's given me lots of good advice about flutes.

[Peter Duggan]

Thanks for your opinions, Peter. Would still like to hear from David/Julia, to whom the questions were addressed.

You might have quoted him, but it's a public forum.

[jim stone]

I did. He's julia. I've amended the message to make it clear.

[Peter Duggan]

I know he's Julia, but hadn't taken the questions as specifically addressed to him.

Wouldn't try answering them again now, however!

[Denny]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=umrp1tIBY8Q

[manu.bande]

Hi People !

Well..., first I must say that I'm enjoying this thread !

As a usual the thread switched to another subject, a very well known !

Talking about the original thread I would suggest you to get a more advanced flute (conical body) instead of the Somers delrin/metal flute, after all you own already the Tipple that from what I heard it is a quiet good cylindrical flute for starts !
I've owned a McGee's Delrin and a Copley's Blackwood which are both excellent flutes, but honestly speaking with my actual flute, a Somers Pratten in D, made in delrin (3 pcs construction), bought it used from C&F member, I'm quiet happy and it costs me much less than the others. i don't think there is a better flute than that one for such a price (at least for a forever beginner like myself) , especially if you buy a used one ! So go for it !

About the delrin versus wood, I did read so many threads about it and in some of them i was involved too. but honestly speaking I cannot listen almost any difference in between a blackwood or delrin flute, or if I do notice the difference (which is quiet impossible for me most of the times) it must be only if I listen the flutes solos playing separately!
But one thing I can guarantee to you... "in the middle of a session it is impossible to notice any difference in between a flute in delrin or wood !

After all if a flute is well made it will sounds good with one or the other material ! So as many people already said, most of the time it is just a matter of preferences, budget, etc., etc..

And again, go for the Somers delrin (3 pcs construction) you will not be disappointed !

Cheers

[Julia Delaney]

I'm not quite sure what the question is. Is it regarding the tone differences between Delrin and wood? I don't know. Even if there is a difference, I'm not sure if that's because of the material or the maker or the design of the flute. I couldn't say that one is "better" than the other. I'm not even sure how to define "tone." Is it different from "sound?"
Volume isn't in the equation because any good flute can be played with enough volume. The best flutes all have their own unique qualities, which will appeal to different people. Wilkes, Hammy, Olwell, Murray, Grinter. They all have their champions. Each maker has unique virtues, reflected in the flutes he makes and in the material he chooses.
I am not a woodist. I play both wood and Delrin flutes. I try to get the clearest, purest sound that I can, staying in tune, with good rhythm and articulation, on whatever flute I am playing. I have many flutes, from many different makers. Trying to keep them all going is challenge enough. I don't look for things I like better or worse, going from one flute to another. I don't A/B flutes for comparison. I try to get the best sound out of whatever flute I am playing at the moment. As with kids and pets, I have my favorites but I love them all.

[hans]

The delrin head on my aluminium flutes has a Boehm type taper in the bore for good tuning - so it's not at all a straight cylinder.

In fact the bore of this flute is very similar to the modern silver flute, except that the delrin head is a little shorter than the usual silver flute head-joint. So the bore of the head tapers down from 19mm where it joins the body, to around 17.5mm at the embouchure hole and the bore of the body is 19mm all the way through, same as the modern Boehm flute.

The embouchure hole is cut as a broad oval and the tonehole sizes and the stretches between them are about the same as for a Pratten, with the E-hole (lowest tonehole) being just a touch larger at around 8mm.

There are some sound clips (numbers 7,8,9) for that flute model, on my website.

http://www.somers-flutes.com/prices-contact

And some photos here:

http://www.somers-flutes.com/aluminium- ... elrin-head

Patrick (Doc) Jones of the Irish Flute Store, USA, has some of these in stock at the moment:

http://shop.irishflutestore.com/Flutes_c3.htm

If you get one from him, he'll be able to pay for some more seeds for his herb garden.

Garry

Garry, nice tone of your alu-delrin flute in those samples! It seems to be a great affordable student flute and outdoor-take-anywhere flute, and a good concept with its turned Delrin head with tapered bore, and aluminium body for lightness. The raised R3 hole is intriguing for a stronger low E and easier finger stretch. I like it!

[Maihcol]

Garry, nice tone of your alu-delrin flute in those samples! It seems to be a great affordable student flute and outdoor-take-anywhere flute, and a good concept with its turned Delrin head with tapered bore, and aluminium body for lightness. The raised R3 hole is intriguing for a stronger low E and easier finger stretch. I like it!

Thanks Hans - I like this term 'alu-delrin', as it's neater than 'aluminium with delrin head'. I might be adopting that! As well as helping to give the E a bit more focus, the raised R3 also helps to keep that note in tune across the octaves. I haven't thought of the raised area as helping with finger stretch, though.

From my own experiments, I felt it didn't make a significant difference to the stretch either way but the finger stretches between the holes are the same as on a Pratten and the taper in the head bore helps with that.

Garry

[jim stone]

I'm not quite sure what the question is. Is it regarding the tone differences between Delrin and wood? I don't know. Even if there is a difference, I'm not sure if that's because of the material or the maker or the design of the flute. I couldn't say that one is "better" than the other. I'm not even sure how to define "tone." Is it different from "sound?"
Volume isn't in the equation because any good flute can be played with enough volume. The best flutes all have their own unique qualities, which will appeal to different people. Wilkes, Hammy, Olwell, Murray, Grinter. They all have their champions. Each maker has unique virtues, reflected in the flutes he makes and in the material he chooses.
I am not a woodist. I play both wood and Delrin flutes. I try to get the clearest, purest sound that I can, staying in tune, with good rhythm and articulation, on whatever flute I am playing. I have many flutes, from many different makers. Trying to keep them all going is challenge enough. I don't look for things I like better or worse, going from one flute to another. I don't A/B flutes for comparison. I try to get the best sound out of whatever flute I am playing at the moment. As with kids and pets, I have my favorites but I love them all.

Thanks for the response. I'm not a woodst, either. I recommended to the original poster that he consider a delrin flute.
I do believe that different materials sometimes have distinctively different sounds from one another, and that this
tends to be preserved across different designs. For instance, I think boxwood tends to have a distinctively different
sound from grenadilla, which tends to have its own sound. For whatever reason, I think different materials can have different distinctive acoustical properties. (If folks disagree with me about that, as of course some do, then
we've got an explanation for this difference right there; I think materials matter this way, they disagree.)

I've owned two seeries and played in passing delrin flutes belonging to others, the forbes and the copley and the M&E rudall, (and pf course I've owned a couple of pvcTipples),
and liked them all; thought they were good flutes. It seemed to me that delrin plastic has its own acoustical properties,
somewhat different from blackwood, analogous to the way that boxwood and blackwood differ acoustically,
and that while delrin was good flute-stuff, it was somewhat less lively, complex and expressive acoustically than
blackwood. I've played one ebonite flute and thought it might be the equal of wood, though of course this
small sample means little; except that it has been said here a number of times that ebonite has a more comples
sound than delrin. Perhaps it's true.

Well, given all the disagreement, I'm willing to rethink the whole thing. I haven't tried all the new delrin flutes
and, as mentioned, I would be glad to be mistaken about all this. Look forward to trying them one day.
If plastic sounds just as lively, and complex as blackwood, say, then I think we're perhaps standing on the
brink of a revolution in flute making. as an apparently much cheaper material, every bit as good acoustically
as cocus or blackwood
or boxwood, and much tougher, is now available. The slipperiness mentioned earlier
can be remedied by roughening the delrin
flute's surface in various ways, e.g. cross hatching or pasting on something rough at strategic places. Avoiding the added weight seems
not to be worth the added expense, at least for those for whom the added weight is no problem.

As always, let a thousand flowers bloom. Thanks to all for the conversation.

[bonefamily]

Thanks to everyone for the replies, experience, and advice. It looks like I have some homework to do... I will research as much as I can, in the meantime continue enjoying my Tipple, and then decide which road I would like to go down. Again, I am not so much an ITM session player so volume is not such a concern to me. Finding an instrument that can cover celtic, renaissance, and medieval music is my mainstay and will make the selection based on that. I'm sure most any quality instrument available could probably cover that

Again, thanks to all!!

[Peter Duggan]

Finding an instrument that can cover celtic, renaissance, and medieval music is my mainstay and will make the selection based on that. I'm sure most any quality instrument available could probably cover that

Sounds like you actually need/want three quality instruments, though you might just get by with two!

[bonefamily]

Finding an instrument that can cover celtic, renaissance, and medieval music is my mainstay and will make the selection based on that. I'm sure most any quality instrument available could probably cover that

Sounds like you actually need/want three quality instruments, though you might just get by with two!

Having three quality instruments would be a wonderful thing! Ok, had to wake up.