Struggling with high-end notes

[killthemessenger]

you believe what you want to believe, and I will believe what I want to believe.

Mirabile dictu, in this age of 10,000 reality shows, not everything is an opinion. The Guru gave you a clear explanation of what "fundamental" means (and not just in his opinion) and why the vented D doesn't fit that definition - because the vent induces a secondary node. The argument's over. Like me (and I have a degree in Physics from bloody Oxford University!) you have just learned something (and I've remembered something I should never have forgotten, but... story of my life). Yea verily.

Now what I want to know is - how to play the brown note on low whistle.

[Peter Duggan]

There is a fingering chart in flute acoustics.

For Boehm (modern) and Baroque it mentions that E5 is the first note that requires a change in air stream.
oddly for the Classical flute it makes no mention of that change between D5 or D#5 and E5.

For D5 Boehm it says:
This fingering is comparable to that for D4 except for the open register hole. The register hole weakens and detunes the first resonance. We can also consider that it creates a pressure node (or flow antinode) at the midpoint of the pipe, and thus allows D5 but not D4. Compared with the D4 impedance spectrum, the low frequency minima are less deep and at considerably higher frequency.

For D5 Baroque it says:
This fingering is comparable to that for D4 except for the open register hole. This creates a pressure node (or flow antinode) at the midpoint of the pipe, and thus allows D5 but not D4. Compared with the D4 impedance spectrum, the low frequency minima are less deep, and at considerably higher frequency. The open hole acts as a register hole. For more detail on register holes see the section in the introduction to flute acoustics. Because there is no series of open holes to cause a tone hole filter, the 2nd, 4th and 6th minima (the 2nd, 4th and 6th harmonics of D4, or the 1st, 2nd and 3rd of D5) are all deep and harmonically related (frequencies 1:2:3), so they lead to strong 1st, 2nd and 3rd harmonics in the sound spectrum, and thus to a bright timbre. (The weak 1st, 2nd and 5th minima can be considered as extreme cross fingerings in which C# is flattened a long way.)

And (perhaps most importantly of all) the introduction to flute acoustics says:
Holes can also serve as register holes. For instance, if you play C4 and then lift your left thumb, you are opening a hole halfway down the instrument. This makes the fundamental and the odd harmonics impossible, but hardly affects the even harmonics, which have a node there. So the flute 'jumps up' to C5 (2f1), and will also play C6, G6 etc. Here the register hole makes the played note (at least) one octave higher, because it is halfway along the working length of the flute and so permits the second harmonic of the fundamental C4. The example shown is not a standard fingering, but a register hole at half the length is used for the standard fingerings for D5 and others.

but you do not over blow to reach it, you anti node the fundamental out

Sure you know fine well you do both, but I'd suggest anyone who doesn't tries some or all of the following...

• Play an unforced XXXXXX low D and raise T1 without increasing air speed to give that OXXXXX A/Bb.
• See if you can really get OXXXXX D with no increase in air speed.
• Increase the air speed on that OXXXXX A/Bb and feel the register break as you go to OXXXXX D.
• Compare the air speed required to overblow XXXXXX D to that required for OXXXXX D.
• Repeat the whole process with XXXXXO E and OXXXXO (producing something like flat C/sharp B on most whistles but also overblowing to vented E on many).
• Feel the register break between OXXXXX D and OXXOOO (or similar) C.
• Feel the lack of register break when 'trilling' XXXXXX overblown D and OXXXXX D then (if you've got a viable vented E) try the same between XXXXXO overblown E and OXXXXO E.

To which I can only add that I'd bet my house on OXXXXX D being a harmonic and not the fundamental!

[Peter Duggan]

PS Note the (what seems to be technically correct) numbering of harmonics on those acoustics pages, with what we tend to call the first harmonic actually being the second (see Wikipedia article for 'corroboration').

[MTGuru]

PS Note the (what seems to be technically correct) numbering of harmonics on those acoustics pages, with what we tend to call the first harmonic actually being the second.

I admit I mix those up and have to double check myself. I believe the "correct" terminology is second harmonic = first overtone, as you imply. Which is why it's sometimes clearer to talk about vibrational modes.

[Trawler]

Thank you - that's very useful

All that talk of harmonics is very scary to a newbie. I feel I need twenty years experience just to understand what they're talking about

-Trawler

Therefore imagine my horror when I realised there were TWO notes above that B - C and D! With strange and unusual fingering! I do not like it!

Does anyone have any tips on good technique to get those upper notes? Or can recommend good whistles to help me? I have 3 Meg's, a Clarke with a wooden mouthpiece, and a Feadog.
Thanks!
-Trawler

With all the discussion of harmonics and such I don't think anyone has actually answered your question yet...

Ther are actually THREE usable notes above B: C, C#, and D. Yes, there are even higher notes, but in 20 or so years of playing I've yet to need one. They're never pretty sounding.

First, the highest notes need a good high wind velocity to get them to "speak". If you try to start the airflow with a a sort of huff of breath, it actually ramps up somewhat gradually. This gradual buildup of wind velocity makes a clean note difficult. This is where a bit of tonguing helps. As you start to blow, place the tip of your tongue behind your upper front teeth as if you were going to say the letter "T". Release the built up air pressure by silently saying that letter "T". The slight explosive burst of air will get the difficult notes speaking more easily.
C# is easily fingered: OOOOOO
D is sort of counterintuitive: OXXXXX (that 0 is the venting that everyone has been talking about). With practice, this isn't hard and truthfully you won't often have to do this very quickly in a tune
C (natural) is a bit more tricky. The only consistent way I know to play this note is HOOOOO where H is half holed (I just invented this notation as far as I know). Half holing scares the bejeezus out of people for some reason, but it's really not all that hard and it can also be used to play many other useful notes like Bb (XHOOOO),G# (XXHOOO),Fnatural (XXXHOO) etc. Do a search of this forum for half holing and you'll see a ton of controversy. By all means give it a try.
Don't be discouraged by the high notes-- they take some practice and will vary a lot from whistle to whistle, but you'll get them.

[Hotblack]

Thank you - that's very useful

All that talk of harmonics is very scary to a newbie. I feel I need twenty years experience just to understand what they're talking about

-Trawler

I wouldn't worry about any of that Helen.
Just play your whistles and enjoy the ride. Some like all that geeky science stuff. I couldn't care less. Whistles are for playing, not discussing musical theory over.

[MTGuru]

Whistles are for playing, not discussing musical theory over.

How about ... both. Life is not always either/or. If mastering a simple instrument can lead you to the beauty and elegance of acoustics, then why not.

And as Tolkien wrote, sometimes you must climb the tower to glimpse the distant ocean that others cannot see.

[DrPhill]

All that talk of harmonics is very scary to a newbie. I feel I need twenty years experience just to understand what they're talking about

Ignore the complex stuff in this thread - it is more about me justifying what I said and people trying to prove me wrong than it is about any useful musical theory......

To the others:
I have been considering your arguments, and I realise why you are having so much problem understanding my position. It is because you are arguing against a statement I never made and against a position on which I have not expressed an opinion. This may be due to my poor writing skills, but I think it may also be due to poor reading skills.

I remind you all that this long and tedious discussion arose because I was criticised for something that I said and I am defending my original statement. I am not arguing for whatever it is you think I said, but only for what I actually said.

In order to help you criticise my actual argument, I have set it down is small steps. To make it easier for you to criticise, I have number the steps. Please tell me at which step you believe I err, and why.

(1) when playing a d5 whistle with vented D opening several distinct notes can be achieved.
(2) these notes are d6,d7,a7
(3) the ratios between the wavelengths of these notes is 1:1/2:1/3
(4) therefore this is a harmonic series [annotation 1]
(5) d6 is the fundamental of the harmonic series d6,d7,a7 [annotation 2]
(6) vented d (d6) is a fundamental (of the harmonic series issuing from vented fingering) and the next note encountered will be d7.

And what I originally said:

The vented D is a 'fundamental' note, so its next harmonic will be D an octave higher still.

[annotation 1] "In mathematics, the harmonic series is the divergent infinite series: (mathematical formula here) Its name derives from the concept of overtones, or harmonics in music. Wikipedia

[annotation 2] "The fundamental frequency, often referred to simply as the fundamental and abbreviated f0, is defined as the lowest frequency of a periodic waveform." Wikipedia

[david_h]

Would it help to differentiate between resonances in the tube (which you could investigate with a signal generator and microphone) and the waveform that comes out when it is blown ?

Vented or unvented, once the jet at the fipple is generating that D cleanly then only multiples of that frequency are going to reach the listener's ear. So far as the listener is concerned that D is the fundamental of a harmonic series they are hearing or looking at as a spectrum on a computer screen.

But the reason you can't get an A from 0XXXXX but you can from XXXXXX is to do with resonances in the tube and very much to do with the bell note as a fundamental.

(crossing Phill and I have to dash off)
(couldn't resist reading the post - it was when I looked at the spectrum as I suggested last night that I saw where you were 'coming from')

[Hotblack]

Whistles are for playing, not discussing musical theory over.

How about ... both. Life is not always either/or.

Indeed. Hence the and after my statement.

[killthemessenger]

Phill, you're right, in the sense that your vented D is the first term in a harmonic series as you describe. But it isn't really the fundamental of that series in a physical sense, since both it and the other terms in that series are actually generated by the lower D, which is the fundamental of the full series. The series you are talking about consists only of the even-numbered terms of the full series.

So at most there is a disagreement here between a purely mathematical approach which describes the series, and the physical explanation of how the series arises.

The fact is that when you told me that I had to use the closed D (D5) to get the high A (A6) because that's what the theory demands, you were quite right. But you then muddied the waters by putting the series with D6 as its first term on the same footing - when that series is not really a harmonic series in the physical sense, but a sub-series of the very same full series whose first term is D5. And since its first term is D5, D6 cannot be considered its fundamental.

[david_h]

So at most there is a disagreement here between a purely mathematical approach which describes the series, and the physical explanation of how the series arises.

If you are a listener or someone interested in the behaviour of generated sound in an acoustic environment regarding the first term as a fundamental is not a 'purely mathematical approach'.

Edit: I have just re-read those first posts. If we are worried about physics I think it is misleading to think we are 'using an unvented D6 to get A6'. D6 (and hence its vented version) is not relevant. We are using a resonance of three times the lowest XXXXXX (bell) note to set the jet at the fipple 'vibrating' at the frequency of A6. This is different to using a resonance of two times the XX0000 note in the first octave (bell of a notional truncated tube) to do the same thing.

(second and third edits to make clear what was added after and crossed with Denny's post)

[Denny]

the deeper ya go, the more precision ya need.

[DrPhill]

Phill, you're right, in the sense that your vented D is the first term in a harmonic series as you describe. But it isn't really the fundamental of that series in a physical sense

So you disagree with statement:

(5) d6 is the fundamental of the harmonic series d6,d7,a7

.

[david_h]

Phil. Do you (still) disagree with

... your fundamentals end at all-fingers-off C# and you can't shorten the tube any further by sticking five fingers back on! ...

That is the part that is bothering people. When talking about sound generation from a tube referring to anything other than the note from the end (or effective end) of the tube as a fundamental is confusing. To get a D above C# that was a fundamental you would have to drill another hole. The resonances involved in generating all the notes above C# are different from those of all the notes below.

And, I think, when it comes to what comes out of the whistle, all the peaks in the spectrum are multiples of the frequency at which the jet is flipping and that could be regarded as the fundamental of a series for a listener. However in other instruments this is not the case. Over on the flute forum they will talk about generating a bell note that is 'missing' the fundamental but does have odd multiples of it. They also get worked up about what goes on down the tube below the top open hole of a first octave note. So a precise terminology is needed.