Low D for small hands?

Nomi · Post by **Nomi** » Tue Feb 21, 2012 3:38 am

Hey folks, I'm wondering if anyone knows of a low D whistle that would perhaps better fit a petite pair of hands? I have one I got as a gift years ago, it's PVC with black and white designs on it and looks very cool, but doesn't sound very clear although that may be due to the fact that for me to play it looks like a bad contortionist act. I've read up on technique and practiced a bit, but I don't think it's ever going to be a comfortabl whistle for me to play. I recently acquired my first Bb, which love, but my fiddler (my dad) is missing the first finger on his left hand and so some keys are just harder for him to play in than others. C and D are the easiest for him, maybe G, haven't actively tried that one. Anyway, I did read the C & F guide to low whistles, and while very informative, hole spacing wasn't covered on each brand. Thanks- Nomi

DrPhill · Post by **DrPhill** » Tue Feb 21, 2012 4:14 am

Hi Nomi
It is not clear from your post whether you have tried the 'Super Duper EZ grip' for low whistles. It used to be called 'the pipers grip', but that put people off. If you have not tried, then you should give it a try. almost everyone who plays low D uses the super-duper EZ grip. It is odd to start with, but soon becomes natural.

I have limited experience of low D's - I have not played them all, but..... there seems to be less variation in hole spacing between whistles than you might expect from the comments you see posted. I have bought one whistle (since sold) that claimed to be good for small hands, and found the hole spacing almost identical to my other whistles. In fact, when I lined up half-a-dozen low whistles of various sorts the holes all lined up remarkably well. There were tapered bore and cylindrical bore amongst them. Wood, plastic, metal the physics of the vibrating air column is the same really.

Some makers (Colin Goldie amongst others) can, I believe, adjust their standard hole spacings but there will always be a comprimise somewhere. Makers choose their optimum hole space/size for a reason.

Nomi · Post by **Nomi** » Tue Feb 21, 2012 11:48 am

Thanks Phil. I did try the pipers grip. My first and second fingers seem to be just the wrong length, when one pne has a second pad on a hole, the other has a knuckle on the hole. However, in looking at the whistle again I notice that while on many lod D whistles (as far as I can tell from the picture) the holes seem to go in a fairly straight line, while on mines they appear to wander from right to left and back. When my mom got it I think she was trying to find a whistle suitable for small hands, but it the attempt may have backfired. Next time I'm off island I'll stop in a music shop and see if a more traditional low D actually fits me better.

DrPhill · Post by **DrPhill** » Tue Feb 21, 2012 11:56 am

Nomi wrote:Thanks Phil. I did try the pipers grip. My first and second fingers seem to be just the wrong length, when one pne has a second pad on a hole, the other has a knuckle on the hole. However, in looking at the whistle again I notice that while on many lod D whistles (as far as I can tell from the picture) the holes seem to go in a fairly straight line, while on mines they appear to wander from right to left and back. When my mom got it I think she was trying to find a whistle suitable for small hands, but it the attempt may have backfired. Next time I'm off island I'll stop in a music shop and see if a more traditional low D actually fits me better.

And I actually seal holes with the crease between two pads sometimes. It seems as if it should not work, but it does. Some folk work down to a low through intermediate keys.

Feadoggie · Post by **Feadoggie** » Tue Feb 21, 2012 12:01 pm

Nomi wrote:I notice that while on many lod D whistles (as far as I can tell from the picture) the holes seem to go in a fairly straight line, while on mines they appear to wander from right to left and back. When my mom got it I think she was trying to find a whistle suitable for small hands, but it the attempt may have backfired.

What you describe is an issue I have with many whistles that claim to have "ergonomic" hole layouts. They are unfortunately ergonomic for a small range of hands and not always for hands with a small range. I have found whistles with holes in a straight line to be more amenable to the Super Duper EZ Grip.

I would encourage you to continue your effort using the EZ grip. It is the only way I wave seen that makes lower pitched whistles accessible to players with smaller hands. And a few low whistles (Burkes as an example) are made with a rotating hole at the bottom which makes sense since it allows custom "ergonomic" hole positioning for anyone's hands. And that bottom hole is the one that makes or breaks the EZ grip usually.

Dave Copley has the right idea as far as offset tone holes go. Along a similar line of thinking I've made one PVC low C whistle with five joints that allows me to rotate the TH3 and RH3 holes to fit my hands better but I doubt I'd go into production with such a design - too many parts. Maybe next year.

Feadoggie

maki · Post by **maki** » Tue Feb 21, 2012 3:42 pm

Have you read through the Pipers Grip?

Peter Duggan · Post by **Peter Duggan** » Tue Feb 21, 2012 4:28 pm

Feadoggie wrote:Dave Copley has the right idea as far as offset tone holes go. Along a similar line of thinking I've made one PVC low C whistle with five joints that allows me to rotate the TH3 and RH3 holes to fit my hands better but I doubt I'd go into production with such a design - too many parts. Maybe next year.

Seen the recorders for the disabled Aulos has been making for many years? (Might also just back up your earlier comments re. 'ergonomic' layouts by adding that I'm still preferring inline holes on whistles where I'm now really needing custom offsets on tranverse flute!)

Feadoggie · Post by **Feadoggie** » Tue Feb 21, 2012 4:44 pm

Peter Duggan wrote:Seen the recorders for the disabled Aulos has been making for many years? (Might also just back up your earlier comments re. 'ergonomic' layouts by adding that I'm still preferring inline holes on whistles where I'm now really needing custom offsets on tranverse flute!)

Yes, I had forgotten about those Peter. I have never seen or played one though. It may have been in the back of my mind when I made that low C. Was that part of your discussion with Dave Copley?

I made a low A for a player that needed the TH1 hole on the rear of the tube a while back. I considered a rotating hole on that one to help with the fit. But a fixed hole worked for him. The Aulos design works well I would think for a wide variety of hands. That's a lot of mortise and tenon joints to get right if you make whistles as one-offs though. The Aulos has a tapered body so it would be obvious if the player got the parts out of order. We'd probably have to number the joints on a cylindrical whistle to help the assembly process.

I probably should have also mentioned that Susato makes low whistles with keys which will help folks with reach problems. The Kelischeks fit them to the Yamaha 300 tenor and bass recorders too.

That doesn't exactly help Nomi with her current low D whistle.

Feadoggie

Peter Duggan · Post by **Peter Duggan** » Tue Feb 21, 2012 5:00 pm

Feadoggie wrote:I probably should have also mentioned that Susato makes low whistles with keys which will help folks with reach problems.

They do, but every open key paradoxically reduces (as well as increases) control by taking you away from a hole...

That doesn't exactly help Nomi with her current low D whistle.

Which is why (like you and Phill) I'd say try persevering with the pipers/EZ grip and not worry too much about which part of the finger's covering the hole so long as it's working.

brewerpaul · Post by **brewerpaul** » Tue Feb 21, 2012 8:02 pm

Check out Walt Sweet's Onyx:
http://www.wdsweetflutes.com/onyx.php
Walt will offset holes for you at no charge for easier fingering. The body tube is made in two pieces, so you can position the holes for your most comfortable position.
I have one of his Resonance models, which came along before the Onyx. I find it remarkably easy to finger and it's the only low D I've owned that my wife can handle, fingering wise. The conical bore by it's nature puts the finger holes closer together than on the "cosmic drainpipe" straight bore low whistles.

cboody · Post by **cboody** » Tue Feb 21, 2012 11:15 pm

Second the motion on the Walt Sweet Onyx. The spacing is quite a bit closer than any of my other lo D instruments and the sound is just fine.

Brigitte · Post by **Brigitte** » Wed Feb 22, 2012 5:16 am

Last weekend had the chance to check out a Carbony Low D which is conical bore and thought that was very comfortable on the hands. I have small hands (glove size S sometimes M) and cannot finger all Low Ds but quite a few which include conical bore like Copeland, Swayne, Shaw and the Carbony, but also manage with an Aluminium Burke we have, the MK, even an old Howard Brass and standard Goldie.

Some makers make off-set tone hole fingerings on request which would help ease the stretch and angle of the hands without the compromises of an easier/shorter stretch tone hole spacing.

Greetings from sunny Germany
Brigitte

P.S. need piper's grip, no other way for me...

Tom Dowling · Post by **Tom Dowling** » Sun Feb 26, 2012 11:55 am

Since the Piper's Grip and Offset Hole solutions have been addressed by minds keener than mine, I will offer up what worked for me: a Tony Dixon whistle, one of which Slow Air showed me at a Northeast Whistler's Gathering at the Sweets' wonderful location north of Hartford, Ct. a few years back. It has an aluminum body and a plastic head. It is tunable. I will guess that the wide bore is what makes the shorter length possible. I got one used and have had a good run with it. If you hit me with your e-mail address via a PM, I will send you an e-mail with dimensions and a photo or two. It is also a pleasure to be back on the Board, especially in such close proximity to the always-wonderful-to-hear-from Brigitte!!

I am currently looking for a good Low E, preferably tunable. I suspect that the Low E-Flat Ihave up on E-Bay--for but a few morehours--will not make the reserve I put on it, in which case I may be looking to swap that for a comparable quality Low E.....

Be Well,

Tom D.

Grizzle · Post by **Grizzle** » Sun Mar 04, 2012 9:57 am

Nomi - I was just buying my own Onyx low D this morning and realized that WD Sweet makes a sideblowing adapter. It's not a flute head but an end cap. Might bring the whistle around to the side where you could reach better with the bottom hand.

http://wdsweetflutes.com/onyx.php

We used to live on the island for several years, was planning to come over for the Friday Harbor Irish music camp this year but it was cancelled. Not getting home enough but looking forward to being back out this summer.

wyodeb · Post by **wyodeb** » Mon Mar 05, 2012 10:56 pm

I love the Onyx! I have small hands, but my real issue was very skinny fingers. I play mine all the time. It's nice to spend more time making music and less time fighting the instrument.

Deb

Edited to add that since it is a 3-part whistle, I can also rotate the holes a little to better facilitate reach.

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