No Transposing - Music Written in the Key of C

[Denny]

and all this discussion regarding preferences is going to be moot.

Totally disagree. Computers are great, but sometimes you just need/want to work without them (do you carry a computer everywhere you take your instruments?), printed music, manuscript paper, ears and brains will always have their place and the relevant skills will remain useful, satisfying and (dare I say it?) fun!

they've been a bit daft since they got electricity...

It'll wear off after a bit

[DrPhill]

I have been following this thread with interest, but I find myself confused about what people mean by 'transpose'.

Assume a tune in D being played on a D whistle using D fingering - no transposition.

Now the same tune played on a D whistle using G fingering is considered transposed (to G).

Now the same tune on an A whistle using D fingering is considered transposed (to A).

Now the same tune on an A whistle using G fingering. Has the tune been transposed?

What I am asking is: 'Is transposition judged by the effect or the actions?'

[Peter Duggan]

Now the same tune on an A whistle using G fingering. Has the tune been transposed?

No.

What I am asking is: 'Is transposition judged by the effect or the actions?'

By the effect, although the actions may require similar skill.

[killthemessenger]

If it's written in one key and sounds in another, then it's been transposed.

[david_h]

What is it called when a classically trained clarinet player plays a jig in D from a staff with two sharps and it sounds in D ?

[benhall.1]

What is it called when a classically trained clarinet player plays a jig in D from a staff with two sharps and it sounds in D ?

A bloody miracle.

[david_h]

OK, I lied, (although she could do it for slower tunes). What actually happened was that untrained whistle player was trying to play Chrstmas carols by reading over the shoulder of the clarinet player and was told he needed to 'transpose'.

So when I see that note it is really this note so the key must be that so I need this whistle and finger it as if I was playing a D whistle in key of ... arrgh give up, play it by ear.

[JTC111]

I have been following this thread with interest, but I find myself confused about what people mean by 'transpose'.

When I used the word, I meant to rewrite the sheet music so it was in D or G.

[Denny]

What is it called when a classically trained clarinet player plays a jig in D from a staff with two sharps and it sounds in D ?

A bloody miracle.

[Peter Duggan]

What is it called when a classically trained clarinet player plays a jig in D from a staff with two sharps and it sounds in D ?

A clarinet in C, of course!

If it's written in one key and sounds in another, then it's been transposed.

So define 'written'...

If I play Calum's Road (as I've been doing for 20+ years) in its original D key on an A whistle using DrPhill's 'G fingering' but without transposing the tune on paper, computer screen or whatever, then I'm not transposing but simply playing it in the original D. If, OTOH, someone else is writing out the tune in G before doing the same, they're treating their A whistle as a transposing instrument (in classical terminology, a whistle in G!) to sound in the same original key. So perhaps we'd need to use two separate terms (eg 'pitch transposition' and 'finger transposition') to be absolutely unambiguous here, although 'finger transposition' also conjures up the delightful vision of swapping the fingers you've already got from knuckle to knuckle!

[mutepointe]

It could be possible for me to have a song written in Bb. I can't play in the key of Bb but I could "transpose" the sheet music in my head to the key of G and if I used an F whistle that would put the song back in Bb, so although all kinds of "transposing" things happened, everything remained the same. Spooky or what?

(I could be wrong about which whistle would put in back to Bb, so please, feel free to correct me, like you all needed permission for that.)

[killthemessenger]

So define 'written'...

If I play Calum's Road (as I've been doing for 20+ years) in its original D key on an A whistle using DrPhill's 'G fingering' but without transposing the tune on paper, computer screen or whatever, then I'm not transposing but simply playing it in the original D. If, OTOH, someone else is writing out the tune in G before doing the same, they're treating their A whistle as a transposing instrument (in classical terminology, a whistle in G!) to sound in the same original key. So perhaps we'd need to use two separate terms (eg 'pitch transposition' and 'finger transposition') to be absolutely unambiguous here, although 'finger transposition' also conjures up the delightful vision of swapping the fingers you've already got from knuckle to knuckle!

I suggest that instead of talking about "D whistle G fingering on a Bb whistle" and so on, we should really be talking about dominant, subdominant and tonic fingering, so it applies to all whistles without confusion as to which keys we're talking about. So you play Calum's Road on an A whistle using subdominant fingering, and it sounds in D. Simple.

Or you could call it tonic, up (dominant) and down (subdominant) fingering. I think it would simplify the discussion. Anyway, just an idea.

[Tommy]

(I could be wrong about which whistle would put in back to Bb, so please, feel free to correct me, like you all needed permission for that.)

Hmmmmm........ Yes if a poster is wrong they will pounce upon.
However if a poster is correct......... then the hecklers will disagree.

Of course permission is not needed for either.

[Peter Duggan]

I suggest that instead of talking about "D whistle G fingering on a Bb whistle" and so on, we should really be talking about dominant, subdominant and tonic fingering, so it applies to all whistles without confusion as to which keys we're talking about. So you play Calum's Road on an A whistle using subdominant fingering, and it sounds in D. Simple.

Misleading when I'm playing in D and D is most certainly the tonic of D...

Or you could call it tonic, up (dominant) and down (subdominant) fingering. I think it would simplify the discussion. Anyway, just an idea.

So you think folk who're struggling with this will get the original up/down derivation of dominant and subdominant? And what happens once you start getting into supertonic fingering, dominant minor fingering, flattened leading note fingering and worse?

[killthemessenger]

Misleading when I'm playing in D and D is most certainly the tonic of D...

I don't understand your objection - play a D whistle with tonic fingering and it sounds in D. What's misleading about that?

But anyway, it was just a suggestion for separating out the fingering terminology from the key terminology, which seems to be the cause of a lot of confusion in discussions like this.

Most people probably only play in a couple of neighbouring keys on any given whistle, so I don't think it has to get very complicated.