No Transposing - Music Written in the Key of C

[mutepointe]

24 really, since each whistle plays in 2 major keys. I have no clue how many fingerings the really fastidious folks do if they learn the scales for minor keys and such.

[hans]

Yep. The folks that really have me scratchin' me head are those who say they learn to play each key on that key's whistle. Eventually, they'll need to learn 12 different ways to play the whistle just to avoid transposing. That gives me a headache just thinking about it.

Nobody really said that. Jack mentioned a few instruments for which he can play written music. I myself am not good with written music and can read for D whistle and a bit for C whistle. I like to take up Jack's idea of playing in C on a low G whistle, and like to be able to read for that. Music in C is just too common, so quite useful to be able to play from the dots. Otherwise I fumble along and learn stuff by heart as fast as possible. If I pick up a tune by ear in a strange key from a recording, and manage to play along on an odd keyed whistle, I most likely would write the dots down if need be as for D whistle, thereby treating my whistle as transposing instrument.

[JTC111]

Yep. The folks that really have me scratchin' me head are those who say they learn to play each key on that key's whistle. Eventually, they'll need to learn 12 different ways to play the whistle just to avoid transposing. That gives me a headache just thinking about it.

Nobody really said that.

I've no idea where it will end for anyone going this route but what I wrote is where it could end up.

Jack mentioned a few instruments for which he can play written music.

My main instrument is guitar and I can play that in any key; although, I'm just as likely to capo the neck and play chord shapes that allow for whatever style or arrangement I'm aiming for. But when doing so, I'm going to write the chord notation as if the neck were uncapoed, not the actual chord I'm playing tonally.

For example, if I have the guitar capoed at the 5th fret and the chord shape I'm using is 320003, I'm not going to that a C even though that's what the keyboard player will see on his sheet and hear coming from my guitar. On my sheet I'd call it a G since the chord shape is that of a G on an uncapoed guitar.

For whistles, I think the same principle is the most efficient way to go and the path with the least potential avoidable problems.

I myself am not good with written music and can read for D whistle and a bit for C whistle. I like to take up Jack's idea of playing in C on a low G whistle, and like to be able to read for that. Music in C is just too common, so quite useful to be able to play from the dots.

It's certainly worth the effort to become more efficient in reading music. And if one can use a computer (as everyone here obviously can), there's notation software out there that allows for some fairly effortless transposing but, truth is, transposing is really easy after you do it a few times.

The problem I was hinting at in learning each whistle key differently is that at some point you're limited to whatever number of keys you can keep straight in your head. And I'm guessing that's going to be a fairly small number for most people attempting this. I can't imagine that it won't lead to quite a bit of confusion at some point leading to hesitation and poor play. Just my opinion...

[JackCampin]

Computer transposition is not going to happen if you have a roomful of printed music and hundreds of CDs. I must have between 100,000 and a million pages of staff notation. Type all of Breathnach or 20 regimental pipe tune books or Bach/Riemenschneider into a computer so I can transpose it before playing a note? I have transcribed far more music than most people, but, sheesh...

Nobody needs to anticipate every key on every instrument for every piece of music. But in practice it's very rare for me to encounter a tune (either in notation or aural transmission) where the key signature is an obstacle to me playing it in a real situation.

The most confused people I've met about this stuff have all been guitarists. The guitar imposes a model of tonality so unlike any other instrument that the result is an utter mess when people try to use it as a model for general music theory.

[JTC111]

Computer transposition is not going to happen if you have a roomful of printed music and hundreds of CDs. I must have between 100,000 and a million pages of staff notation.

If you have a million pages of staff notation, the reality is you're never going play it all. Because if you played 100 different pieces a day for the next 25 years without a day off, you'd still fall way short of the mark.

The most confused people I've met about this stuff have all been guitarists. The guitar imposes a model of tonality so unlike any other instrument that the result is an utter mess when people try to use it as a model for general music theory.

I'm not confused at all by the theory; it's the desire to overly complicate the application that's confusing. I think the "utter mess" will come when one attempts to relearn how to play a whistle for the 5th or 6th time. But to each, his own.

[Pipe Bender]

This quote is from one of my earlier posts in this thread:

I have a C whistle and I'm going to play with "all fingers down" a note that is written on the page in each case as a C
1 - if the music has a key signature of C and when the note is played it will sound a C
2 - if the music has a key signature of D and when the note is played it will sound a Bb
3 - if the music has a key signature of G and when the note is played it will sound an F.

I realize now that I made a fatal error when I put that post together and the error got multiplied when I used the cut & paste functions. Does this make more sense:
1 - if the music has a key signature of C and played on a C whistle it will sound in the key of C
2 - if the music has a key signature of D and played on a C whistle it will sound in the key of Bb
3 - if the music has a key signature of G and played on a C whistle it will sound in the key of F

[hans]

It does not make sense to me.
In your original statement #1 is right and #2 and #3 are wrong.
If you have all fingers down on a C whistle it always sounds a C.
It does in no way has anything to do with what is written.

In your new statement it all depends what you mean by "played on".
I'd think anything played on a C whistle will sound either in C (XXXXXX tonic) or one of its modes or F (XXXOOO tonic) or one of its modes, never mind what is written. That is unless you use half-holing to play all kinds of semi-tones, in which case you could play in plenty of other keys and modes, not just c and f and associated modes. How you figure out what is written is another question though! And I probably totally misunderstood what you really tried to say!

[hans]

If you use the usual fingering associated with playing a D whistle, but are using a C whistle, then reading the music as you used to for D whistle
1. music with signature of C (no sharps) and using half holed Fnat and Cnat as for playing in C on a D whistle will sound as Bb (or its associated modes)
2. music with a signature of D (2 sharps) will sound as C (or associated modes)
3. music with signature of G (1 sharp) will sound as F (or associated modes)
simply all one whole tone lower than what you are used to from playing a D whistle.

[Pipe Bender]

I and all who looked at the first one where I indicated note outcomes while playing the bell note on a C whistle was conceptually completely wrong (other than the C note outcome was right).

I don't know where my mind was when I wrote that post. Somehow I mixed "note" outcomes (completely invalid on all counts) with "key signature" outcomes.

And to top it all off Hans, I just reversed the Bb and C key signatures in that last post as you noted immediately. Thanks you for the correction. I need to proof these a little more before I hit submit. Or just read and not post at all.

[hans]

The mind is a funny bugger!
I'm so glad we can play lovely music without needing to read any!

[JackCampin]

It is quite simple to get your head round playing on instruments of a range of pitches, if you are playing music that stays within one key signature at a time.

Most woodwinds have some variant of the six-hole whistle fingering, with a few variants introduced by extra holes/keywork and crossfingerings.

The main thing you need to get clear in your head is what pitches are produced for the three-right-hand-fingers-down note and the three-fingers-down-on-each-hand note. On a D whistle, that's G and D; on the Highland pipes it's D and A; on an E flat clarinet it's Eb and Bb in the low register, Bb and F in the upper one. To get other notes, you stay within the key signature of the tune you're playing and think "one step up" or "one step down", where the steps are scale degrees in whatever key/mode you're playing in. (Disregard the guitarist's notion of "step" as meaning "fret", it's irrelevant for diatonic music - I never count semitones).

[Pipe Bender]

At the risk of screwing up another post, I seem to be getting a peep of what Jack is saying. The "traditional" transposers (I use traditional simply for a lack of a better label) are visualizing, on-the-fly, the note raised (or lowered) to the key of D on the stave while Jack is raising or lowering the whistle fingering by the same number of steps. One does either method in their head while playing. After while either would become second nature. This to me is akin to comparing apples with apples.

Here is where they differ significantly - if you commit the "traditional" transposition to paper then I believe we are comparing apples to oranges. The on-the-fly brain work for the "traditional" method disappears once the transposition is committed to paper.

I would assume that none of this applies if you are playing completely by ear.

[benhall.1]

I would assume that none of this applies if you are playing completely by ear.

I would agree with that, with this added thought: I, like a lot of people, 'hear' the music when I see it written on the stave. Which is one reason why it doesn't really feel like transposing to me, just because I've picked up another whistle to play in the key as written (assuming that's what I've decided to do on that occasion).

[Nanohedron]

24 really, since each whistle plays in 2 major keys. I have no clue how many fingerings the really fastidious folks do if they learn the scales for minor keys and such.

Fastidious. Seriously? Don't you ever just simply explore the whistle to find the extent of what it can do for you? That's how I found my fingerings: by the joy of exploration. And exploration is by nature messy. It's like playing with mudpies. Fastidiousness (fer godsakes) had nothing to do with it.

To leave it at two major keys is a self-imposed artificial constraint with no purpose other than to play it safe. Now that's fastidious, should you want an example. How can you be happy with that? Break loose, man! Even leaving half-holing out of it, on a D whistle and with only the crossfingered Cnat available to you - should, if, and as you need it - you can expand your number of musical scales on a whistle to 7 fingerings at least. That's five more possibilities than you gave yourself.

[mutepointe]

From my first post in this thread:

You have really got to learn to be a slacker. Then you'd have more time to watch TV or hit on the babes.