No Transposing - Music Written in the Key of C

[mutepointe]

My main instrument used to be cornet. Since cornets usually come in Bb, when playing with other instruments I got used to sight transposing sheet music in the following way - raise the music by one "note" and add two sharps to the key signature. When I whistle tunes in C, I pick up my C whistle, and do the same thing - add one note and two sharps to the key signature.

A long while back right when I was having to figure out transposing for a clarinet player who joined our folk group, I happened to meet a Salvation Army Band Director. I asked him what he did since some instruments are Bb and some are C and I couldn't imagine that the Salvation Army would spend money on different versions of the same music. He said that he just taught all instruments as if they were C instruments.

This was in pre-computer days, so what we did for the clarinet player was that we just subtracted 2 from our capos on the songs that we used capos and for songs where this was not an option, I hand wrote transposed music for her.

[Tunborough]

I always enjoy reading how we all come at the topic of transposing differently and the skills we have all developed to address transposing for our own needs and instruments.

I am of the opinion that most of us that post on this topic have figured transposing out by ourselves individually and that this subject is just not taught universally in music programs. I also think that because instruments are so different and the combination of instruments is even more complex that a universal approach to transposing is just not going to happen.

Early in life, I picked up the habit of learning tunes in what amounts to a movable-doh system. (My instrument at the time probably involved a wooden mallet and 8 tin bars painted in primary colours.) I learn how the tune fits into a diatonic scale, find a suitable diatonic scale on the instrument, and then I can play the tune on the instrument. (Doesn't mean I can play it well, of course. Also doesn't work well for sight reading.)

[benhall.1]

was your first instrument a non fretted string thing?

Yes.

[hans]

Early in life, I picked up the habit of learning tunes in what amounts to a movable-doh system. (My instrument at the time probably involved a wooden mallet and 8 tin bars painted in primary colours.) I learn how the tune fits into a diatonic scale, find a suitable diatonic scale on the instrument, and then I can play the tune on the instrument. (Doesn't mean I can play it well, of course. Also doesn't work well for sight reading.)

Yes, precisely! And because the tune is in your head/heart.
It would be great for easier reading traditional music, for easier learning, to have the tunes noted in a movable Doh system. If you use a staff system, have all tunes written in C signature I'd say, and an indication of the common used key/mode of the tune. And change the abc notation system to movable Doh as well: just use the C diatonic scale and give the key/mode. Then announce that all whistles are transposing instruments and only learn reading this music written in C and associated modes.

ITM players obviously would demand that D is the base, not C. But C is more universal, note names are straight forward etc.

And fiddlers of course would not want any movable Doh system, and since whistlers are forever picking up music from fiddlers and their tune books we won't get to such a whistle friendly system and are forever condemned to be bogged down with transposition issues.

[hoopy mike]

Just print the dots out on a sheet of paper without printing the stave, then print the stave onto a sheet of acetate. By moving the stave on the acetate sheet relative to the notes, you can transpose instantly!

[Pipe Bender]

#1 - a lot of people learn how to play their instruments and how to read music, by associating notes - including notes on a stave - with fingerings.

#2 - I think of it the other way round. I look at a stave and see the notes, as they're written. Then, depending on what instrument I'm playing - fiddle, D whistle, C whistle, whatever - I know what that note is on my instrument and just play it as written.

The two methods would make an interesting poll and as well if method 2 people usually come from a "was your first instrument a non fretted string thing?" background.



I'm wondering if people who migrate to playing tunes by ear find the migration easier coming from method one or method two?

[david_h]

I am only just starting to break a line-on-staff to finger-on-instrument link that I think came from starting self-taught (with a tutor book) on whistle using sheet music. I didn't use whistle tab - never saw the point since I could link the dots to fingers. Learning a fretted string instrument made the link weaker by confusing things - I started to think of note names more. What I hope is a 'breakthrough' may be learning to play by ear but that happened whilst playing a lot more so it may be coincidence

I too started of with one of those primary-colours coloured toy xylophones. I couldn't play many tunes on it, there where not enough notes, even after I stole my sister's. Ah, wait a minute, was rearranging the bars to play a tune when starting from one end the wrong thing to do ? (I really did do that)

[benhall.1]

I'm wondering if people who migrate to playing tunes by ear find the migration easier coming from method one or method two?

See, now I'm struggling with another concept. Who are these people who "migrate to playing tunes by ear"? I don't understand that. But again, some background - I was used to playing by ear and from sheet music from the start, when I was a kid. But the bit I don't understand is - are you talking about people who have taken the trouble to learn sheet music and then kind of 'unlearn' it so as to make hearing the tunes easier? No, that doesn't make sense ... Sorry, I'm not trying to be difficult. Honestly, I just don't understand where you're coming from ... I can be thick at times ...

[Pipe Bender]

By "playing by ear" two things come to mind:
- those that never having needed written music to pick out the tune, pick up their instrument and play it
- and those that learned using written music and over time seem to develop this pick-out-the-tune ability.

Have you ever noticed those that are musically gifted have a hard time grasping the difficulties we not-so-gifted have to endure

When it comes to this stuff I routinely use the phrase "thick as a brick" to describe my abilities.

[mutepointe]

I'm wondering if people who migrate to playing tunes by ear find the migration easier coming from method one or method two?

See, now I'm struggling with another concept. Who are these people who "migrate to playing tunes by ear"? I don't understand that. But again, some background - I was used to playing by ear and from sheet music from the start, when I was a kid. But the bit I don't understand is - are you talking about people who have taken the trouble to learn sheet music and then kind of 'unlearn' it so as to make hearing the tunes easier? No, that doesn't make sense ... Sorry, I'm not trying to be difficult. Honestly, I just don't understand where you're coming from ... I can be thick at times ...

I am one of those people who migrated. My first two instruments were keyboards and guitar. I can still only play them with sheet music. When I learned the whistle, I was in my car one day, without sheet music and tried to see if I coulld remember a song, and I did! And then I figured out that I could figure out songs on the whistle. I can't do that on the keyboard or guitar. And this is where the multi-instrument complexity aspect of transposing comes into play. (Of course, THOSE PEOPLE, would be ME PEOPLE.)

[benhall.1]

So, are the people who "migrate to playing by ear" the people who are in your second group above? I.E. (if I've got it right) people who were taught from the beginning using exclusively sheet music - probably by classical teachers - and then take up trad music some time later in life?

I believe that people in that second category can very rapidly develop the ability to pick up tunes by ear. About a month should do it, provided it is treated like any other kind of practice and you work at it every single day for that time.

[Pipe Bender]

So, are the people who "migrate to playing by ear" the people who are in your second group above? I.E. (if I've got it right) people who were taught from the beginning using exclusively sheet music - probably by classical teachers - and then take up trad music some time later in life?

Yes

I believe that people in that second category can very rapidly develop the ability to pick up tunes by ear. About a month should do it, provided it is treated like any other kind of practice and you work at it every single day for that time.

However, my original interest was wondering if either of the two methods in your earlier message repeated below, would be better to facilitate this. Maybe there is no difference.

EDITED FROM benhall.1 wrote:
#1 - a lot of people learn how to play their instruments and how to read music, by associating notes - including notes on a stave - with fingerings.

#2 - I think of it the other way round. I look at a stave and see the notes, as they're written. Then, depending on what instrument I'm playing - fiddle, D whistle, C whistle, whatever - I know what that note is on my instrument and just play it as written.

[mutepointe]

So, are the people who "migrate to playing by ear" the people who are in your second group above? I.E. (if I've got it right) people who were taught from the beginning using exclusively sheet music - probably by classical teachers - and then take up trad music some time later in life?

I believe that people in that second category can very rapidly develop the ability to pick up tunes by ear. About a month should do it, provided it is treated like any other kind of practice and you work at it every single day for that time.

This is just a guess on my part but I bet there are people who first learned to play by ear but then through circumstances needed to learn sheet music. There was a man in our folk group for a while who played by ear but he had to learn how to at least follow sheet music if he was going to play consistently with a group of people especially on songs that were seasonal or occasionally played. A person who learned by ear on an instrument that played one note at a time would have more of a challenge on multi-note instruments (that's why I can't play by ear on a keyboard, too much is happening all at once.)

[Denny]

I'm wondering if people who migrate to playing tunes by ear find the migration easier coming from method one or method two?

See, now I'm struggling with another concept. Who are these people who "migrate to playing tunes by ear"?

woodwinds

They start with associating a note on the staff with a fingering, not a pitch. Makes it a bit of a problem, eh.


Doesn't help 'em play in tune either...

[benhall.1]

I didn't think the aim was to play in tune. Just going by experience, like.


I'll get me coat ...