Am I missing something here?

[plunk111]

I know Chris Wilkes has a 10-year waiting list, but is this flute worth over twice what a new one costs? The starting bid is $3500 and has a reserve that is obviously higher. Are these flutes that good?

Pat

[EDIT] Oops - actually, the starting (non-reserve) price is over three times the new price! Maybe this is a special model or something(?)

[Sigmund]

I know Chris Wilkes has a 10-year waiting list, but is this flute worth over twice what a new one costs?

We'll see. Let the market decide.

[paddler]

Personally, I think its very sad to see people making far more money on these flutes than the maker (who created ALL the value) does. This seems to happen on a regular basis for the Wilkes and Olwell flutes. I find it sad because I know these makers go out of their way to "do the right thing" by which I mean that they try to keep their instruments affordable for real musicians, and they try to be true to the people who have been on their waiting list for a long time. By doing this, though, the flutes immediately become a lucrative market for speculators wanting to make a lot of money for free. How do they do that? Well, all they have to do is get on the Wilkes or Olwell waiting list and eventually that maker will effectively send them a few thousand dollars more than they send him (i.e., they send a few thousand to him, get a flute back and immediately turn it around for several thousand more than they sent!). Its no surprise then that these makers have waiting lists many years long! Who doesn't want free money - even if it means a wait?

The irony is that the net effect is that most normal musicians can't get a flute, because they can't afford one at market value, and can't wait long enough. So the original goal was not met. Personally, I think Chris and Pat should increase their prices and should keep the money themselves! Once they become wealthy they could always sponsor some deserving musicians if they want to, but at least they would be rewarded appropriately for the true value they have created.

[Latticino]

I don't think this particular flute was purchased purely "on-spec" to sell. Clearly it has been well used (look around the embochure hole for evidence). I can't imagine spending that much on a used flute, but then I don't have that kind of disposable income. As far as the price on this particular example, are you taking into account the extra charge for the wide engine turned rings and crown? I bet they add a significant upcharge.

Perhaps I'm an innocent, but I can't believe the vast majority of the people on the Olwell and Wilkes waiting lists are buying flutes just to resell. If that was the case we would see a regular stream of almost new Olwell and Wilkes flutes being sold (and I've been on the lookout for flute sales for a while and haven't seen evidence of that).

All in all it is a lovely flute from a very well regarded manufacturer. As it has been said before, we in the simple system flute world are pretty lucky regarding instrument prices. I think this particular flute is expensive, but not completely out of line for the work that has gone into it and the world class quality of the product.

[uillmann]

Personally, I think its very sad to see people making far more money on these flutes than the maker (who created ALL the value) does.

ALL the value? If you need a faucet, you could make your own in your basement. If you go to the hardware store and buy a faucet, the absolute total cost of manufacturing a faucet may be, let's say, 7 dollars. Then you'd add shipping, packaging, storage, displaying, rent, light bill, accountant's fee, salesman's wages, inflation, etc. and suddenly said faucet might then total, say, 16 dollars. The retail price of that bit of plumbing might be, shall we say, 20 dollars. (they are a business, you know.) What are you paying 4 dollars extra for? You are paying for the guy behind the counter to say, " You want a FAWCETTMAXX No. 893768B? WELL HERE YOU GO!" You whip out your card and charge it, and the bank makes 2.4%, thereby reducing the profit to like 2.6% (or whatever.) You go home and install it. It leaks. You call the plumber. He comes over and says, "Yeah, I can fix that. It will cost 72 bucks." You shrug and say, " Okay, I guess." He takes out his hammer and gives a little tap on the pipe, and, viola! the leak is gone! You say, "What the hell - 72 bucks for a tap with your @@$#%$#&@* hammer???!!?!?!" He says, "It's not 72 bucks for the tap with the hammer, it's 4 bucks for my lunch, 6 bucks for gas, and 62 bucks to know where to tap."

BTW, I currently have a flute for sale that, when everything is said and done, just cost me close to 8 grand - straight from the maker, and I waited 25 god damn years for it. I am offering it for 8K OBO or 12K BUY IT NOW (or get in line and maybe buy it NEVER.) Not to mention that the melt value of the metal has doubled since I bought it, and the wood it is made of isn't available at ANY price. Not a lot of profit margin there, now is it? Have a nice day! : )

[Jon C.]

BTW, I currently have a flute for sale that, when everything is said and done, just cost me close to 8 grand - straight from the maker, and I waited 25 god damn years for it. I am offering it for 8K OBO or 12K BUY IT NOW (or get in line and maybe buy it NEVER.) Not to mention that the melt value of the metal has doubled since I bought it, and the wood it is made of isn't available at ANY price. Not a lot of profit margin there, now is it? Have a nice day! : )

A bargain at any price!
Can we see a photo of this beauty? oh sorry, didn't see the thread...

[Doug_Tipple]

BTW, I currently have a flute for sale that, when everything is said and done, just cost me close to 8 grand - straight from the maker, and I waited 25 god damn years for it. I am offering it for 8K OBO or 12K BUY IT NOW (or get in line and maybe buy it NEVER.) Not to mention that the melt value of the metal has doubled since I bought it, and the wood it is made of isn't available at ANY price. Not a lot of profit margin there, now is it? Have a nice day! : )

I'm not very impressed by this rhetoric.

[Jon C.]

BTW, I currently have a flute for sale that, when everything is said and done, just cost me close to 8 grand - straight from the maker, and I waited 25 god damn years for it. I am offering it for 8K OBO or 12K BUY IT NOW (or get in line and maybe buy it NEVER.) Not to mention that the melt value of the metal has doubled since I bought it, and the wood it is made of isn't available at ANY price. Not a lot of profit margin there, now is it? Have a nice day! : )

I'm not very impressed by this rhetoric.

Ullmann is a good man, he is just driving his point home...

[Aanvil]

BTW, I currently have a flute for sale that, when everything is said and done, just cost me close to 8 grand - straight from the maker, and I waited 25 god damn years for it. I am offering it for 8K OBO or 12K BUY IT NOW (or get in line and maybe buy it NEVER.) Not to mention that the melt value of the metal has doubled since I bought it, and the wood it is made of isn't available at ANY price. Not a lot of profit margin there, now is it? Have a nice day! : )

I'm not very impressed by this rhetoric.

Nor am I.

That's the gold keyed Owell I reckon?

With so much invested I wonder why someone would sell it.

Something that precious, well... I'd have it surgically embedded into my femur rather that let it go.

Perhaps others could... welll... shove it up somewhere and save the cost of the hospitalization.

Good luck with the sale.

Why the fek would someone order a flute like that with gold keys anyway?

Does he offer that??? If not I'm sure it must have had Patrick scratching his head.

Prolly why it took 25 years.


(Yes I know... we are a tough crowd around here. Fekin nice lookin flute tho, eh?)

[tsackett]

BTW, I currently have a flute for sale that, when everything is said and done, just cost me close to 8 grand - straight from the maker, and I waited 25 god damn years for it. I am offering it for 8K OBO or 12K BUY IT NOW (or get in line and maybe buy it NEVER.) Not to mention that the melt value of the metal has doubled since I bought it, and the wood it is made of isn't available at ANY price. Not a lot of profit margin there, now is it? Have a nice day! : )

I am impressed with this rhetoric. It's tone is surprisingly reasonable for someone who put a deposit on a flute, then waited for 25 years only to find that it wasn't going to work for him and is now being criticized for trying to get a decent price for it. He's not even asking anything unreasonable. If I were willing to spend $8K on a flute for which I would have to wait 25 years, I would certainly be willing to spend 50% more to have that flute now. In fact, a flute worth $8K with a ten year wait might be worth $16K no wait.

Fine wooden flutes aren't like real estate during the housing bubble, or tulip bulbs during the tulip craze. The market isn't overrun by speculators distorting the value of the instruments. If the market is distorted, we can blame our own perceptions that flutes by a few makers are so superior to those of others as to be worth waiting ten years to receive. I also have to wonder how many of us are really using all those keys that we pay so much for, and for which we wait so long.

Thinking about this gives me a great deal of respect for Terry McGee, who simply closed his waiting list when it became unreasonable. I'm also impressed by makers who find ways to make fine instruments in higher volumes.

[MTGuru]

I'm going to close this thread, because it is veering much too close to violating our Chiffboard policy against Price Policing. Which you have all read, right?

Thanks,
- Moderator