R&R Cocus on Justflutes

[Terry McGee]

I've noticed that this style of ivory ring:



seems more common on military band flutes (Bb, F and Eb); while the more delicate style as in the Justflutes instrument seems more common on concert instruments (in D). It's certainly more similar to the earlier flutes by Potter et al, as in this lovely instrument from the Bate:



Terry

[RudallRose]

interesting, terry
my boxwood 1900 has the same style rings as the ivory on the Bb, but in sterling.
the same for the small-hole cocus #1899.
the flute you're showing, #2707, at the Natl Acad.....hmmm....makes me wonder if it was custom.

I won't yet agree the band theory since boxwood was hardly a band flute.
nor the small-holed one.
but it's possible they showed up there most often.....wonder why, though. was cheaper to have thin rings.

interesting

[Terry McGee]

I won't yet agree the band theory since boxwood was hardly a band flute.

I assume you mean that your boxwood one wasn't a band flute. Boxwood was used for band flutes, including by R&R, because it was the cheap option at the time. Hard to believe now, I know, but I guess when you remember boxwood was a timber native to the UK, while cocus or ebony had to come from the far-flung colonies, it makes sense.

but it's possible they showed up there most often.....wonder why, though. was cheaper to have thin rings.

The older style of rings were thinner, but wider. These ones are fatter but narrower, so they'd possibly use less ivory. I don't know if the "bone grubbers" (as "hardwood and ivory turners" were called) had tricks to be able to get the smaller rings (eg end of foot) out of the centre of the larger rings, and maybe even the indicator rod out of the very centre! I'd certainly be looking to maximise the yield from each tusk!

Terry

[RudallRose]

Boxwood was used for band flutes, including by R&R, because it was the cheap option at the time.

again, terry....i doubt the conclusion. The cost had little to do with outfitting an entire band, rather to ensure students of the noted amateurs and professionals of the day could afford them. We're not talking about people with lots of means, after all. Funny enough, though, if it was such a deal....why were so few made in relation to the other cocus flutes?
Besides....i'd be more a believer if we were to find several (undoutedly many) boxwood 8- or 6-key flutes in boxwood and pitched in the typical band pitches of Bb, Eb and F. But we don't. The evidence simply doesn't support your conclusion. Again, merely my own theory.
But the books and the actual instruments seem to tell a different story.

I think the boxwood flutes that have the fancy rings and such were the "upgrading" orders of those who didn't have the means to purchase a fully outfitted cocus model but could have the basic boxwood with fancy rings.
hence why we see so few boxwood Rudalls with the boxwood Patent Head, a likely very expensive upgrade.

Let's not forget, too, that Rudall himself played on an 8key boxwood model until he finally got his custom-made Boehm flute from the man himself.

We could say the same of the boxwood Boosey-Pratten flutes.....which they did in fact offer in F and Eb.....but of which very very few examples exist. is that because they were all trashed? or, more likely, so few were ever made.
The even did advertise them as band flutes.

To ask: when did the band flutes come into vogue? when did the bands come into vogue? I doubt they were as early as the earliest rudalls were being made. If i were to venture a guess, I'd suspect c. 1855-65.
Perhaps the old Musical Worlds or Emphorium mags would give us clues.

[Terry McGee]

There's some useful information about military versus concert flutes at:

http://www.mcgee-flutes.com/OrigPrices.htm

See the section called: Rudall, Rose, Carte & Co, c1855. (I think this is the earliest Rudall price list I have.) Prices are given in Pounds, shillings and pence

From the military flutes section:

BOXWOOD, with Four Brass Keys and Ivory Tips, E flat Flutes 1 6 0
DITTO DITTO Concert Flute [i.e. D] 1 10 0
All the above with tuning head, screw cork, cup keys, extra 12 0
BOXWOOD CONCERT FLUTE, Eight Silver Keys and Mountings 5 5 0
COCOA WOOD Concert Flute, with eight German Silver Keys and Mountings 4 4 0

Compared with from the non military flutes section:

THE ORDINARY EIGHT KEYED FLUTE, Boxwood, German Silver Keys and Mountings, Tuning Slide, Single Springs, without Case 4 4 0

DITTO, Cocoa, Boxwood, Ebony 6 6 0

DITTO DITTO, with stronger Silver Keys and Mountings than the above, Superior Wood, Double Springs, in Case, complete, with Fittings 11 11 0

Note no mention of ivory in the non military flutes section. Boxwood is still the cheap option.

More, including prices for Hawkes and Nicholsons flutes at:

http://www.mcgee-flutes.com/OrigPrices.htm

Terry

[Lars Larry Mór Mott]

I just like the idea of a flute made in the early/mid nineteenth century being touted as "pre-owned." What happened to all the brand new antiques? Don't tell me they've been sold!?

My thoughts exactly
"Ok, that was a nice one but i'd very much like a new, unused 1850's model please"

[RudallRose]

precisely as I said, Terry.....1855.
Rudall Rose Carte

not Rudall/Rose.

My own flutes with the bands similar to your displayed Bb....are c.1835.
The Bb flute is c.1840 tops.

And the one with the flat ivory rings on my other is c.1825-26.

Must have been poor output in those years of military instruments. Nothing shows up on the catalogue in boxwood. Or in Eb for that matter.

I suspect we'll never solve this one.

[dunnp]

Notice the use of tips for ivory rings and mountings for silver.

The Clementi catalouge uses tips for both I think.

Funny we use rings now for flutes and mounts {or mountings sometimes for ghb} and ferrules for pipes.

[MTGuru]

i'd very much like a new, unused 1850's model please

There's always the possibility of "new old stock", if you're lucky.

A few years ago a friend of mine found a cache of new vintage Generation whistles in a dusty drawer in a music shop in Luton. One of them is now sitting on my desk, and it's a cracker.

OK, it wasn't exactly a drawer full of Rudalls ...

[Aanvil]

I have this recurring dream where I come across a Curtis P-40 Warhawk in a barn covered with a tarp and hay. The farmer says I can have it if I just tow it away. In the cockpit I find a big box of new old Rudalls.

[RudallRose]

it's a thrill
years ago i actually acquired what appeared to have been a virtually-unplayed Rudall.
No signs of play anywhere, purse pads in original unused condition. Gorgeous grained figured cocus wood with what appeared to be the original finish. Even the stamps were still rough under the finger, as if just done.
The tone holes were crisp and "sharp" edged as was the embouchure.
As I said. Virtually unplayed. ("virtually" because there's never any way to prove that difinitively).

I still have it. And I play it from time to time. Was afraid the handling would darken the wood. I gave up on that and just play it.

[Terry McGee]

precisely as I said, Terry.....1855.
Rudall Rose Carte

not Rudall/Rose.

Must have been poor output in those years of military instruments. Nothing shows up on the catalogue in boxwood. Or in Eb for that matter.

Not so fast, Wabbit!

There's also the Rudall, Rose & Co catalogue from 1851 attached to the back of Carte's Sketch of the Successive Improvements to the Flute, published by RR&Co.

It includes "Bb Tenor flutes (or Flute D'Amour)" and "Third or F flutes". Strangely doesn't seem to mention Eb flutes, but that must surely be an oversight - why would you offer F and Bb and small flutes of every type but leave out Eb? (They are lumped in with D flutes in some catalogues and that might be the cause of the oversight.) Again, boxwood and ivory are the cheaper options (you can save 10 shillings and sixpence on each!).

I suspect we'll never solve this one.

Not necessarily. The catalogue also says that RR&Co:

" continue to supply the Army and Navy with complete sets of Clarinets, Oboes, Bassoons, Cornets, Trumpets, Horns, Trombones, Serpents, Opheclides, Drums, Cymbals, etc., &c., with every modern improvement."

That seems to suggest they've been doing it for a while. Yet, I'm not aware of vast numbers of all these instruments labelled Rudall & Rose. So it's quite possible that they used another name for their military band instruments, and maybe different serial numbering (or none at all?) So we might have to look elsewhere for their military band flutes.

Terry

[RudallRose]

ah
you might be onto something.
Don't forget that there were a few Rudall & Key flutes made when they purchased Thomas Key's location at Charring Cross!
Perhaps those?

either way......no need to speculate any longer.

You can wa\ve the catalogues.....but show me the actual flutes!

[Rob Sharer]

Remember, David, that absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.



Rob

[RudallRose]

absolutely true, Rob.

but a lack of evidence is merely conjecture.

one would have to say that if a single item exists, then that lends credence to theory and conclusion.
When no item exists, the best you have is assumption, but that lacks solid credibility.

That's all i'm saying.

(haven't been through this before?)