PVC whistles HELP!!!!

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Corgicrazed
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PVC whistles HELP!!!!

Post by Corgicrazed »

Okay, so using Guido Gonzato's PVC whistle plans, I have gone ahead and made a low whistle. I am REALLY pleased with the tone,however I have three questions.

1: Exactly how should I finish the labium? What shape should it be?

2:How do I make it louder? I want to be able to compete with my sister's violin. :twisted:

3: How do I clean it? In the process of making the whistle, the pipe has gotten dirty in some areas. I tried cleaning it with ordinary soap and water, but it doesn't seem to be coming out.

Any tips will be greatly appreciated.
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Re: PVC whistles HELP!!!!

Post by Latticino »

I'll take a stab at answering:

If you are pleased with the tone of your home made whistle you probably shouldn't make any changes to the labium other than, possibly, bringing it up to a slightly smoother finish. I presume if you are following Dr G's instructions it is already wedge shaped in crossection.

Cleaning PVC is dependant on what has stained it. Grease, dirt and oil should yeild to some kind of high strength non-abrasive cleanser (Formula 409 and the like). Take care in using anything with a stronger solvent to avoid damage to the plastic. If you have scratches or abrasions on the surface they will continue to pick up additional dirt and oil faster than you can clean it. Best solution is to go for a full polish on the whistle. I believe Doug was kind enough to post the extensive procedure he uses for his PVC flutes. If you do go for a polish, watch out for the fipple section. Needless to say test any cleansers on a sample first.

As far as volume goes, I think you may be SOL for competing with a fiddle. Even the professional makers can't really drown out a fiddle with their Low D whistles (at least in the first octave). I believe Dr G does give some direction for changing the windway width to try to have louder and quieter whistles, but to get the same kind of volume as a fiddle is unlikely IMHO.

Good luck and congratulations on your first whistle project.
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Corgicrazed
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Re: PVC whistles HELP!!!!

Post by Corgicrazed »

lol. thanks. but ya' know what they say, I gotta try. :twisted:
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Re: PVC whistles HELP!!!!

Post by Feadoggie »

Latticino has about summed it up, good post. I'll just add these bits.
Corgicrazed wrote:1: Exactly how should I finish the labium? What shape should it be?
The ramp, the labium edge, the fipple (that's just the plug) face/edge and surface as well as the windway roof exit and size of the window all conspire to create the tone of the whistle. I am not sure just what you may mean by "finishing" your labium. The angle of the ramp can be short and steep, long and shallow or somewhere in between. Common wisdom says shallow means more complex tone and shallow contributes to less comples/more pure tone. Your experience may vary depending on lots of other contributing factors. The edge also helps determine the tone. The edge can be blunt. rounded smooth or even a razor sharp edge. Again the common wisdom says blunt is more complex sharp is cleaner (all other factors aside). Undercutting the edge is another topic. You should experiment with a variety of shapes and shoot for your own signaturer tone. That's why I always say "Betch can't make just one!"
Corgicrazed wrote:2:How do I make it louder? I want to be able to compete with my sister's violin.
Latticino is spot on again. You can blow harder or you can ask your sister to use a mute. Again conventional lore says that a larger window and bigger holes gives you a greater volume but the law of diminishing returns enters into things quickly. Make sure you hold to conventions for length-to-bore ratio between say 23:1 to maybe 30:1. The lower value will favor the first register, the higher value will favor the upper register but if you go much beyond those values you will not be able to get strong notes at either end, at least not easily. If you want a louder low D make a flute. As an aside, I've spent a lot of time in the shop trying to match the volume of a flute with a low whistle design and it hasn't resulted in a huge success on my part yet.
Corgicrazed wrote:3: How do I clean it? In the process of making the whistle, the pipe has gotten dirty in some areas. I tried cleaning it with ordinary soap and water, but it doesn't seem to be coming out.
Soap and water is the standard method of care for PVC. But... PVC has an interesting property, it seems to absorb dirt and color from other contact if enough time passes without cleaning it off. It can be nasty. It has to do with how the surface breaks down (probably from UV exposure but I am not a chemist or materials engineer). I've made a couple hundred PVC whistles and flutes. To get them clean and shiny is a time eater. I've come to hate white PVC. The best advice I can give you is similar to what has already been said by Latticino. Keep the pipe smooth and clean as you are making the whistle. Cover the areas around where you are going to be working on with masking tape to keep it from getting scratched. After I have completed a whistle I first clean off all the lettering from the pipe manufacturer. I have used acetone to do that but with some pipe that only exacerbates the problem and the color runs and then really gets into the plastic. So now I sand it smooth with fine sand paper. I then go into a long, laborious process of re-polishing the surface to a smooth glassy sheen. That involves using various polishing compounds and buffing wheels. But it goes a long way towards keeping the dirt from turning the whistle to a grungy looking mess.

Congrats on your first whistle.

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Re: PVC whistles HELP!!!!

Post by Kypfer »

I'll agree with just about all recommendations so far ... just one little thing extra, if the current whistle-head works well ...

DON'T MESS WITH IT

Get yourself a coupler for the size of tube you used (if available), cut your existing whistle into two parts two or three inches below the window, then make a fresh whistle-head. There is little more frustrating than having had a perfectly working whistle that is now worse than it was. At least with separate heads you can always revert to "last known good" until you come up with a new idea to try. You can even make a flute/piccolo head for it :o
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Re: PVC whistles HELP!!!!

Post by highwood »

and just one more thing:

I heartily agree with
DON'T MESS WITH IT
unless you have made several heads and know you can improve it - and don't mind starting over if you mess it up.
That being said a coupler whether external or an internal slide will change the bore and don't be surprised if it also changes the intonation. You can also make it tunable which as with most things brings along multiple problems with its benefits.

- and a comment
I then go into a long, laborious process of re-polishing the surface to a smooth glassy sheen.
This is not such a long process, assuming the whistle is spinning quickly on a lathe(!) and if one starts with good sand paper (I prefer wet & dry) that produces 'scratches' a little finer than those to be removed and quickly runs through various progressively finer grades.
So for example presently I am using 240 to get rid of the lettering and then start with 320, to 400, to 600, (to 800 - though I am presently missing this), to 1500, 2400, & 3600 (the last 3 being micromesh) 1500 is also available in wet and dry - try a good hardware store or your local auto paint store and produces a pretty nice finish, especially if followed by some very fine steel wool (go easy the heat can melt the plastic - not a pleasant smell, or good for you or good for the finish) and/or crocus cloth.
By starting not to fine (or to course), not skipping any grades, and using good quality sand paper the process is quicker and less painful - does take a little practice and some materials respond much better/quicker than others.
Without a lathe I am sure this process would take much longer and probably not work as well - though I find that to get rid of the lettering is often easier not spinning the plastic tube on the lathe.

And finally I think its nice to have at least one whistle around with lettering to show folks that it really is made from common plastic pipe.
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Re: PVC whistles HELP!!!!

Post by highwood »

And to go back to the original questions - or least one of them.

If you are
... REALLY pleased with the tone...
you should NOT touch the labium.

Make a new head to experiment with, or preferably several - and try things. if you can figure out how to make a separate head and body that help will with experimentation (for obvious reasons)

wider window -> louder, all things being equal - but they never are.
And I for one am not convinced that larger tone holes make a louder whistle - though they effect tone, and intonation, and spacing (which matters for low whistles). The tone can effect the perceived loudness, the quality of a sound can have a big effect on whether it is heard (or cuts through) YMMV
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Re: PVC whistles HELP!!!!

Post by Kypfer »

a coupler whether external or an internal slide will change the bore
... not necessarily. The external couplers I use have a little ridge in them the same size as the tube (from the same manufacturer). From the electrician's or plumber's point of view, the join is exactly in the middle of the coupler (with the pipe pushed firmly in) ... from the whistle/flute maker's point of view, there's no practical discontinuity if the coupler is used as a coupler, with the pipe cut exactly square and fully inserted, not used as a tuning slide :)
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Re: PVC whistles HELP!!!!

Post by highwood »

The external couplers I use have a little ridge
yes - the ones I am familiar with do too. Often you do have to push them very hard to completely close the gap - it has been my experience that even when glueing them together (the glue makes it easier to push them together) there is often a small gap.

I went back to read my post because I thought I had suggested that it might make a difference and find that I had not used my usual 'possible' or 'might' or ... Oh well I should take a stand, too bad it was not what I meant!

So - "IF one introduces a perturbation to the bore (that is a gap/indentation or protrusion into) it will effect the intonation of the instrument. It might be quite small, possibly not worth worrying about or it might quite noticeable, and it might be bad, or it might be good!
Last edited by highwood on Sun Jun 19, 2011 7:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: PVC whistles HELP!!!!

Post by brewerpaul »

I agree with all the advice so far, especially the ones which said not to mess with the one that you've already made that you like. Save the first whistle you've successfully made and make more of them. They'll get better and better.
Use the coupler technique to make one good body and then make a bunch of heads to experiment with the dimensions of the window and blade. Make the window narrower or wider. Make the blade shallow or steep. Vary the distance from the fipple plug to the blade. Try adding more or less of a bevel to the top of the fipple plug where it exits the windway. You'll be amazed how tiny alterations in these dimensions can make HUGE differences in the playing of the whistle. It's where the magic enters into the whole whistle making process. After 11 years of making and selling whistles, the first few notes out of a new whistle are still a surprise to me.

Let me add that you shouldn't make the edge of the blade TOO sharp. It can become quite delicate and can deform easily, even in PVC. Glenn Schultz recommended that the edge be "the thickness of a business card" and that seems to work well, at least for wooden whistles.
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Re: PVC whistles HELP!!!!

Post by highwood »

It can become quite delicate and can deform easily, even in PVC.
I would say especially in PVC.
the first few notes out of a new whistle are still a surprise to me
One of the magical things about making an instrument!
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Re: PVC whistles HELP!!!!

Post by Thomas-Hastay »

The best way to clean PVC pipe to remove lettering,dirt etc. is a cotton cloth well soaked with Fingernail Polish Remover (Acetone). If you rub briskly with an Acetone soaked cloth, you can also smooth/polish rough sanded areas. Q-Tips work well for the tight spots. Don't let the cloth/q-tip get too dry though or it will stick to the PVC. Use in a well ventilated area!

I gaurantee you will never have to sand off lettering or wear your fingers raw polishing PVC again. It's a Whistlesmith secret I've used for decades now. Try it and you'll agree!!!
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Re: PVC whistles HELP!!!!

Post by Feadoggie »

Thomas-Hastay wrote:The best way to clean PVC pipe to remove lettering,dirt etc. is a cotton cloth well soaked with Fingernail Polish Remover (Acetone). .... I gaurantee you will never have to sand off lettering or wear your fingers raw polishing PVC again. It's a Whistlesmith secret I've used for decades now. Try it and you'll agree!!!
That works very well for some pipe but not all pipe in my experience.. As I said earlier:
Feadoggie wrote:After I have completed a whistle I first clean off all the lettering from the pipe manufacturer. I have used acetone to do that but with some pipe that only exacerbates the problem and the color runs and then really gets into the plastic.
So let me clarify my experiences just to save whistle-smiths some potential grief. Acetone works well on pipe with black lettering especially on CPVC. Lowes and other US plumbing supply outlets sell pipe from Charlotte Pipe which has a habit of marking their white PVC pipe with red lettering for their company name. The red ink/paint will run with the acetone treatment and turn your pipe pink. And once it does that, no amount of sanding will get it white again. That's not always what you are looking for in a final whistle. (I had a bunch of pink flutes in the shop for quite a few years seving as a reminder.) Sanding is a useful alternative. I usually avoid pipe with colored lettering these days. That's the best solution. I still use acetone on CPVC. I sand most of the PVC I work with though.

My polishing process follows a sanding process not dissimilar to what highwood describes. I don't go past 800 grit though. By that time the whistle has been removed from the lathe and I polish at a buffing wheel using polishing compound formulate especially for plastics. I have used the buffing wheels to polish other instruments for many years. It results in a good, hard, glassy sheen. There are many ways to skin this proverbial feline. :)

Hope that helps someone avoid pink-whistle syndrome.

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Re: PVC whistles HELP!!!!

Post by Daniel_Bingamon »

Instead of messing with a perfectly good whistle, make another one.
This time make sure that the floor of the windway (the bottom of little slot that the wind travels through to reach the window) is clean and super smooth. Then put file a little angle pointing 45 deg down into the opening - it's call a chamfer.
If you make some side "ears" around the window opening, this will make the sound more focus and sometimes louder. You can also make ears around the window opening inside the whistle.
File everything nicely and clean loose strands of PVC. Test it before gluing.

And hardware store acetone is a bit stronger than fingernail polish remover (acetone).

To get the pink on Charlotte tubing under control. Use a slightly damp (with acetone) paper towel a remove in small amounts before doing a heavy wipe. You can even mask off the blank areas to prevent the pink from spreading too far.

BTW - Rit powdered clothing dye and acetone mixture (please do it outside for safety) will color PVC pipe. (Some people do this for gardens with green dye to hide the pipe)
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Re: PVC whistles HELP!!!!

Post by Kypfer »

You can also make ears around the window opening inside the whistle.
... thanks for that tip, I'd thought about it, but never got around to trying it ... always searching for that "perfect sound" :lol:
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