second octave

[jemtheflute]

You never told me to do that. I now blame you for everything that's wrong with my flute playing.

Would you have taken any notice?

[benhall.1]

That is very infinitely far from the point.

[sniff]

[jemtheflute]

Ah, a palpable hit, methinks.....
Sniff away! (Better than groaning!)

[benhall.1]

Ahh ... if only you'd taught me properly ... if only you'd lavished the care and attention on me that ...

... but no, don't mind me, I'll be alright here on my own. I have the deathwatch beetle and the leaking roof for company ... so you just go off and enjoy yourself ...

[skyspirit]

Your next step, on the assembled (and leak-checked) flute, is to practice slurred octaves - using just lip adjustments (mirror work!) to make the "overblown" octave shift up - and down. Start on the upper hand notes - A, then G, then B, then work your way down the scale. Don't move onto a new note until you can do it well on the previous one - get able to do a series of octave shifts, not too close together but with a sustained tone between shifts (find the best tone you can before switching 8ve again) without tonguing or making any other airstream stop or "attack" on the note. Then, when you're good at that do scales of slurred 8ve shifts, e.g. (capitals = bottom 8ve, minuscules = 2nd 8ve):

BbB AaA GgG F#f#F# EeE DdD and back up, then inverted bBb aAa etc. (Be aware that the open C# usually needs a cross-fingering at the top of the 2nd 8ve, usually oxx xoo - the overblown open fingering ooo ooo is almost always out of tune on nearly all flutes.)

WoW! This is good stuff here. Makes lots of sense. I have been doing this bacwards. I would try going up the scale and then to the 2nd octave d,e and so forth.

A tune that is important to me is amazing grace. The arrangement that I have has a 2nd octave D. I actually think that this will help with that tune.

Thanks alot. oh, I don't have an air leak. I learned to check in NAF's.

[jemtheflute]

Don't forget with D that (as on whistle) you need/it is preferable to vent the top finger for the 2nd 8ve - low D xxx xxx to oxx xxx middle D (d). You can get the middle D by just overblowing the fundamental, and it doesn't hurt to practice doing so, but it has a better tone with the vented fingering and is also easier and more reliable to hit thus - so best to ingrain the habit in all contexts.

Don't get ahead of yourself, but you can in due course also take Amazing Grace (tessitura of 1 8ve!) higher up as you get the higher notes - play it starting on A and it still won't need any cross fingering, or on G where it will introduce C natural (probably oxx xox on a cylinder bodied flute).

but no, don't mind me, I'll be alright here on my own. I have the deathwatch beetle and the leaking roof for company ... but no, don't mind me, I'll be alright here on my own. I have the deathwatch beetle and the leaking roof for company ... so you just go off and enjoy yourself ...

Ah, I wondered when we were going to get back to derelict fluters. Like I said before, pictures required!
As for the last bit, I'm busy posting off new-made PVC piccolos and trying to work on a flute repair......

[skyspirit]

Don't forget with D that (as on whistle) you need/it is preferable to vent the top finger for the 2nd 8ve - low D xxx xxx to oxx xxx middle D (d). You can get the middle D by just overblowing the fundamental, and it doesn't hurt to practice doing so, but it has a better tone with the vented fingering and is also easier and more reliable to hit thus - so best to ingrain the habit in all contexts.

Don't get ahead of yourself, but you can in due course also take Amazing Grace (tessitura of 1 8ve!) higher up as you get the higher notes - play it starting on A and it still won't need any cross fingering, or on G where it will introduce C natural (probably oxx xox on a cylinder bodied flute).

aha. when I vent the top and do get a better tone. interesting.

[Doug_Tipple]

Don't forget with D that (as on whistle) you need/it is preferable to vent the top finger for the 2nd 8ve - low D xxx xxx to oxx xxx middle D (d). You can get the middle D by just overblowing the fundamental, and it doesn't hurt to practice doing so, but it has a better tone with the vented fingering and is also easier and more reliable to hit thus - so best to ingrain the habit in all contexts.

Don't get ahead of yourself, but you can in due course also take Amazing Grace (tessitura of 1 8ve!) higher up as you get the higher notes - play it starting on A and it still won't need any cross fingering, or on G where it will introduce C natural (probably oxx xox on a cylinder bodied flute).

aha. when I vent the top and do get a better tone. interesting.

It looks like you already have a teacher and at a very good price.

[MTGuru]

It looks like you already have a teacher and at a very good price.

Skyspirit, if you have a local family music store there, a next step might be for you to drop by on a day when the flute teacher is giving lessons and have them do a quick once-over on your flute, which they'd probably be happy to do. A few times up and down the 1st and 2nd registers, and you'll get a sense of how much of any problem is the flute and how much is you. They might even let you try a silver flute to give you a point of comparison.

[MTGuru]

There are two obvious flaws in the fiddle string analogy

Yeah, Ben's got it, especially #2.

Now consider intonation in the light of imagining that, for some odd reason, that e-string detuning was a common historical tuning that you're quite used to practicing and using ...

I once had some joker randomly retune my P-bass during a gig break, with no time to set it right when we restarted the next set. After an Alice in Wonderland moment, it took me a few seconds to figure things out and play the set as if nothing had happened. Adaptable.

I can get into the second octave about 3 holes. It just doesn't seem to be a great tone. I checked on tuner and is in tune. That is the D is still a D.

Well, there you go. Embouchure is everything, and takes practice. And I expect you're learning a lot from tackling this flute that doesn't meet certain expectations.

[skyspirit]

jemtheflute,

I have made the foot or so head joint as you prescribed. This is working great. I am going to add a wedge. I played around with covering the end and putting my finger in the open end. The tone was better.

I also went to a source that I have about shakuhacchi. I remember a discussion about tapering the pvc bore. Interesting jig to do that. Any thoughts? Here is the link.

http://www.navaching.com/shaku/taper.html

Thanks for your help

At the end of the day,I will buy a better flute.

[Terry McGee]

There are two obvious flaws in the fiddle string analogy which make it ... well, almost not an analogy, since it just isn't comparable. Here they are:

1) The fiddle player would just tune the E string back up. A flute player can't really just make the body conical in the two seconds it might take for a fiddle player to tune an E string (which, btw, we are quite used to doing pretty much while we are playing);

Of course they would - why would any musician put up with a handicap like the second octave being flat when you can do something about it? It might take the flute player a little longer than 2 seconds to fashion a wedge, but wouldn't that be a good investment in time compared to lipping a reluctant flute up 30 cents for ever?

2) Even with an out of tune E string, I, as a fiddle player, would still play every note in tune except the open string, and with well-nigh no effort. Moving my finger a few millimetres or less is not quite the same as having to lip up a series of notes on a flute. Again,this is something we have to do all the time. No big deal.

You wouldn't leave it like that though, would you. Not for the sake of a few seconds tuning the fiddle, or a few cents worth of plastic wedging the flute.

Now, of course, if I were a banjo player ....

I had considered making that the analogy but then thought that's a bit tough - the banjo player couldn't slide up the 30 cents needed to get back in tune. But, I'd ignored string stretching - the banjo player could stretch the strings enough to overcome the detuning. On reflection, that probably is the better analogy - stretching the strings 30 cents is in the same league as being asked to lip up 30 cents - technically possible, but a last resort.

Terry

[skyspirit]

Well, I may have found a teacher. From right on the forum living just down the street or road as they say.

@Doug. he is looking at my flute for usefulness

@one of the mod's MTGuru to be exact. He has lots of flutes to try. I can finally decide on what flute to buy.

and I learn how to improve my flute playing.

Just hope I can afford him.