Tuning Question

[highland-piper]

My reed and chanter currently play an F# that is dead on A440 with no tape or rushes. It sounds bad with the drones.

Assuming the root note of your scale is D, then your F# is wicked sharp. It needs to be 13.7 cents flat (reckoned from ET) to be in tune with your drones.

[benhall.1]

No, honestly, Will, they're not designed for ET. Well, not according to my taste, at any rate. The biggest problem is the G string (assuming you're tuning it in standard tuning as opposed to DADGAD). But most guitarists I know tend to tune their guitars more or less as follows: tune the A string. Tune the D and G in perfect fourths above the A string. (Some seem to start with A and D together for some reason that I can't quite fathom.) Tune the bottom E to a perfect fourth below the A. Tune the top E to a perfect double octave with the bottom E. Tune the B to a perfect fourth below the top E. Then tune the bottom E and the G down a touch. Try a variety of chords and adjust. I'm not saying they think about it too hard, but that's what they do.

Some others that I have come across tune to a tuner. But it's really interesting what they do next. They go straight from there to the 'trying a variety of chords and then adjusting' phase. Because you do actually have to make compromises. No-one I know tunes strictly in ET because, for most keys, it just doesn't sound good. How the frets are arranged is another matter.

I'm guessing that each guitarist will have his/her own preferred method of tuning, which may actually be, or they think is, different from either of the above. I know there are some who tune by playing unisons between a fretted note on the string below sounded together with the string they're trying to tune. But have a look at how often they fiddle about with the tuning in the first two or three songs or tune sets after they've done that. I've seen some use harmonics on separate strings. Well, we know that that won't get you ET, or even anywhere close.

I knew I'd regret mentioning it ... anyway, what were we talking about? Ah yes: pipes. Much easier.

[an seanduine]

The biggest problem is the G string

I must concur,benhall

Bob

[pancelticpiper]

Back to the uilleann pipes and how they should be tuned, we might keep in mind that tuning is situational, that is, how you tune depends on who or what you're playing with.

Playing solo, you want the chanter's notes to blend with the drones. This is pretty much how all bagpipes are tuned. For a very clear example you can listen to any top modern Highland piper, where each note is strictly tuned to Just Intonation and rings with the harmonics produced by the drones. (The interaction between the chanter's notes and the drones' harmonics is clearer on Highland pipes because the pipes are so much brighter in timbre than uilleann pipes.)

Just Intonation compares to Equal Temperament like this (notes given are for the low register of the uilleann chanter, plus or minus their ET position)
D 0
E +4
F# -14
G -2
A +2
B -16
C natural -32 (ratio 7:4 in tune with the 7th harmonic) or alternately +18 (ratio 9:5)
C# -12

Tune your chanter like that, and every note of the low register will ring perfectly with the drones.

But... then you'll be out of tune somewhat if you play with guitars or keyboard instruments.

I have my chanter tuned ET because that's the sort of situations I usually play in, playing in mixed ensembles for concerts or soundtracks or whatever.

[benhall.1]

I really like that list, Richard. I particularly like the alternate Cnat tunings. To me, that's part of the perennial problem of Cnat in this music. For Cnat, what does it mean to be "in tune"? (Rhetorical.)

[fancypiper]

The first time I had heard and seen the "sharp C natural" it really jumped out at me. I believe that I have heard only one piper using it.

Vol XXV No 1 - Winter 2006 issue of The Pipers’ Review, or Iris na bPíobairí, has a good article on the tuning of the uilleann bagpipes.

"The Tuning Of The Uilleann Pipe Chanter" By Richard Cook

The Piper's Review Archive

My gripe about electronic tuners is that they quit reading just as you approach correct tuning. I believe there are just too many harmonics for the tuner to deal with. That's why I like tuning to the bell (drone) note better than trying to get a number on a tuner.

If it sounds good, it is good.

[straycat82]

My reed and chanter currently play an F# that is dead on A440 with no tape or rushes. It sounds bad with the drones.

Assuming the root note of your scale is D, then your F# is wicked sharp. It needs to be 13.7 cents flat (reckoned from ET) to be in tune with your drones.

I understand that. I was making a point about tuning to A440 in the absence of drones.

[highland-piper]

My reed and chanter currently play an F# that is dead on A440 with no tape or rushes. It sounds bad with the drones.

Assuming the root note of your scale is D, then your F# is wicked sharp. It needs to be 13.7 cents flat (reckoned from ET) to be in tune with your drones.

I understand that. I was making a point about tuning to A440 in the absence of drones.

I understood what you were saying. I was making a point about learning how to use the tuner in ways other than ET, regardless of what frequency you calibrate it to.

[karl]

Thanks everyone for your replies, it's become an interesting thread!

[fiddlerwill]

Ok Ben, got ya. I generally use ET for tuning the guitar and in the Classical world its anathem to tune yr gtr to anything but ET, definitely not to a chord or key! I struggled with this issue for years being an unlettered guitarist tuning to perfect intervals to really get good G and D chords, playing with fiddle and pipes ! tuning by ear. Thats grand but when the fiddler moves to Em Im out of tune!! So now I use a tuner as its a lot easier [ quicker and more reliable] than trying to tune at sessions by ear, Its a compromise but it works ok.
But as you point out I adjust my tuning by ear to get as close as I can to the sounds Im after , which as a piper and fiddler, is perfect intervals. Which is somewhat frustrating as its not possible
I find one of the problems to my ear is guitarist playing in ET backing an instrument in JI. The gtr sounds 'flat' uninspiring, compared to the full tones of a piper.
I use a peterson tuner, the only tuner that is accurate enough IMO. It offers JI as well.

Nowadays a good keyboard can adjust to play in JI in any specific key, great fun to play along with on GHB .

[benhall.1]

But as you point out I adjust my tuning by ear to get as close as I can to the sounds Im after , which as a piper and fiddler, is perfect intervals. Which is somewhat frustrating as its not possible

That's it! That's it exactly.

[Johnered66]

Back D - even 0.00
C# - minus 11.73
C Nat. - minus 3.91
B - minus 15.64
A - plus 1.96
G - minus 1.96
F# - minus 13.69
E - plus 3.91
Bottom D - even 0.00

so help me out here...on a tuner, A=440, your bottom D and top D should be dead center, green light on the tuner...the going up, plus 3.91 on E means it is meant to be a tad sharp on the tuner? and minus 13.69 would be a tad flat of the center? Thanks...not that I will ever be capable of tuning as such, just good info to know...

[highland-piper]

so help me out here...on a tuner, A=440, your bottom D and top D should be dead center, green light on the tuner...the going up, plus 3.91 on E means it is meant to be a tad sharp on the tuner? and minus 13.69 would be a tad flat of the center? Thanks...not that I will ever be capable of tuning as such, just good info to know...

Yeah, +4 means the needle is a little to the right.

If it's a Korg tuner, then -13.69 means the needle points at the little triangle to the left of center.

For highland pipes, I find the tuner helps me quickly get in the ballpark. If something is way out of tune, it tells me right away. When I get close I finish by ear.

[pancelticpiper]

They make electronic tuners calibrated to Just Intonation, intended for tuning Highland pipes. Question is, do they have enought latitude in pitch to allow them to pitch the bagpipe's "A" (actually a note halfway between Bb and B) all the way up to D.

Here's a little chart of where the notes of a Highland chanter fall vis-a-vis "0" on an ordinary electronic tuner:



If you aren't used to transposing back and forth between Highland and uilleann pipes, it's like this:

A=D
B=E
C#=F#
D=G
E=A
F#=B
G=Cnat


Now, I've heard it said many times that uilleann chanters tuned to Equal Temperament are terrible and unacceptable, but once again tuning is situational.

I find nothing terrible or unacceptable about my own chanter, which is tuned exactly to Equal Temperament. Here it is, playing well in tune along with a Pipe Organ. Note that F# is at it's ET pitch, not where it would be to blend with drones (14 cents flat).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=onGGxt19ksg

[highland-piper]

Now, I've heard it said many times that uilleann chanters tuned to Equal Temperament are terrible and unacceptable, but once again tuning is situational.

In the situation in your video clip there are no drones. I'd bet that the people who say ET uilleann chanters are vile are speaking about hearing the clash between the chanter and the drones.