That being said, what makes you qualified to give playing advice ....................?
Michael
Not being personal, just a thought, I don't think it is essential that the advice has to come from a 'good' player or the like. That may often be the case but not always. e.g. some good teachers may not be great players. I met a few lovers of the music who can make very valid and informed comments on it even thought they do not play it. Their only qualification is a deep love of it and to me that's a very good qualification.
I would very much hope people do not feel they can not pass comment, where it has been asked for, just because they feel the player is in some way better than them. In my eyes everyone’s comments deserve to be heard and expressed freely. Then, as said, the player can decide what notice he wants to take of them.
I agree that some good teachers may not be great players. I lived a few blocks away from a university music school for many years, and I was privileged to attend many student and faculty music recitals during that time. I have to admit that some of the faculty recitals made me want to go for a bathroom break and never return. Yet these teachers attracted students from all over the world because of their knowledge of their instrument and their ability to teach. This phenomenon can be witnessed at international musical competitions, where the judges are chosen for their knowledge and music sensitivity and not so much because of their performance ability with the instrument. The same can be seen in professional reviewers of the arts, in general. I also think that the converse of the original proposition is also true. Some great players of an instrument may not be great teachers. I know where I would look for instruction.
Regarding speed; speed isn't everything, but rhythm is. A tune played too fast, even if correctly by itself, can still sound sh!te if the rhythm is off, and a tune played slowly can sound lovely and uplifting if the rhythm is right. I always feel sorry when visiting a session and a novice player starts off a tune way too fast, because he thinks it is meant to be played like that (or because everyone does). I much more enjoy playing along if the tune is started off slowly but rhythmical, no matter if the novice has any clue of ornamentation or whatever. After all it's not shiny ornamentation or top speed or a barking tone that makes the music, it's rhythm. Listen to Mike Rafferty for a great example. So get your timing and rhythm spot on, then the rest. And you're on a good way, to say the least.
That being said, what makes you qualified to give playing advice ....................?
Michael
Not being personal, just a thought, I don't think it is essential that the advice has to come from a 'good' player or the like. That may often be the case but not always. e.g. some good teachers may not be great players. I met a few lovers of the music who can make very valid and informed comments on it even thought they do not play it. Their only qualification is a deep love of it and to me that's a very good qualification.
I would very much hope people do not feel they can not pass comment, where it has been asked for, just because they feel the player is in some way better than them. In my eyes everyone’s comments deserve to be heard and expressed freely. Then, as said, the player can decide what notice he wants to take of them.
I'm not sure I agree. Certainly anyone experienced with the music on any instrument can make general comments about rhythm and flow, intonation, etc. However, specific instrument technique advice does have to come from someone who has the skills and physical distinctions on the instrument to understand both the issue player is dealing with as well as provide specific correction at a physical "do this instead" level.
I strongly believe that anyone who is going to give specific technique advice to players on this board should be able to provide a link to an online recording or video of their playing to demonstrate that they actually have the physical playing distinctions required before offering potentially bad advice to other players.
Then we get into the meta-issue that occurred here, where one member criticizes the advice of another. Tricky stuff. Sometimes, I see players being given truly bad advice, and its difficult to not want to go after the person giving the bad advice rather than the advice itself. Members from confrontive cultures would attack the person directly, those of us from more collective interaction style cultures would comment about the advice and not the person. Either way, one has to take any advice given here with a grain of salt and do one's homework to decide on who is worth listening to when specific technique advice is offered. Online recordings are extremely useful in this regard.
I'm not saying that I'm a particularly good/bad player or that I'm any more or less qualified than anyone else to give advice. Anyone can look at my videos and decide if my playing resonates with what they are looking for and then decide if they want to take my advice.
I stopped taking things personally here a long time ago. Wasn't always that way. Life has been much happier ever since.
Last edited by eskin on Fri Apr 15, 2011 6:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Tell us something.: I play fiddle, concertina, flute. I live in NH. Lived in Kilshanny, Co Clare, for about 20 years. Politically on the far left. Diet on the far right (plant-based fundamentalist). Musically in the middle of the pure drop.
Gabriel has said it all.
As far as the teacher bit is concerned, I learn the most from players who are better than I am. I seldom learn from non-players or from people who haven't been playing as long -- or in as focused a fashion -- as I have. The best teachers, IMHO, are those players who can consistently do what I can't and who know what I don't.
Sure, sometimes a non-player, or a beginner, will make a comment or play something that is valuable or worth taking seriously. But to learn the pure-drop learning I go to a pure-drop player.
That said, I don't give advice over the net, except this: slow down. ...speed isn't everything, but rhythm is.
Freedom is merely privilege extended, unless enjoyed by one and all. The Internationale
Cubitt: I do think Michael has a point. The OP asked for feedback, and you dismissed his and other advice here except your own, amounting to "do your own thing". Which is not very helpful to a learner, in my opinion.
There's certainly nothing wrong with a suggestion to try a crisper articulation. The OP does use only one type of phrase attack throughout the clip, where more variety can add interest and drive to the tune and expand one's technique. And there's no indication that FascinatedWanderer is "mystified".
Obviously, there's no Chiffboard requirement to post clips of one's playing. But in the absence of face to face contact here, it's always helpful to have a basis to evaluate the player behind the words - either by reputation or by example. Especially if one wants to present oneself as an authoritative advice-giver on the board, and not simply a purveyor of personal opinion.
While I agree with gorjuswrex and Doug that the best teachers are not always the best players and vice-versa, it's not unreasonable to expect that a teacher of an instrument or repertoire can actually play that instrument or repertoire at all. And thanks to the "internet dog" phenomenon, in theory there's no assurance that that's the case on the board.
In fact, there have been a few notable examples here where it was explicitly not the case. So there is a basis for the request for evidence, given the artificial limitation of the Chiffboard. And even if advice based on critical appreciation and not practical experience may sometimes be valid, I think it's reasonable for people to be able to know which perspective a particular piece of technical advice is coming from.
Cubitt: Taking you at your word, you may be a very fine player, with your 30 years of ITM. But to my knowledge, no one in either the Chiffboard community or the Southern California session community has heard you play. So the curiosity is understandable. And it's apparent that you do play out occasionally, as your avatar photo from a concert with harpist Dennis Doyle indicates.
So I don't imagine that posting a brief clip should be too difficult or traumatic. Or, as Michael said, you're welcome to come by our session, as I recall I invited you myself quite some time ago. Have a pint and trade some tunes and techniques with Michael, Aanvil, myself, and some of the best LA trad players in a friendly atmosphere. We'll look forward to that!
I liked the clip I posted because of the lift. By all means slow it down but keep that feel. I find its not best to play along to recordings but to listen to them before practicing. I was thinking that to myself when I posted the clip which I found at random searching something else, just when I think I know a tune I hear someone playing it like that. Thats the joys of it.
Fascinating discussion. I'm rather glad I posted this clip now both for the feedback and the general talk.
Gabriel: Thank you for the feedback. As you may already have surmised, the clip is played on the flute you sold me, my first. A fine instrument. (Now watch as all your customers go running away thanks to my playing...)
When a person asks for feedback for an instrumental performance, it seems to me that there are at least two distinct types of feedback that can be competently given. The first type of feedback will come from a skilled performer of the instrument. He/she will be qualified to mention fingering or blowing techniques and other subtleties that only a competent player of that particular instrument would be likely to know. The second type of feedback will come from someone who may not be able to play the instrument in question but is very knowledgeable about musical styles, rhythms, etc. that comes from research and years of critical listening. I think that both types of feedback can be helpful.
Tell us something.: I'm a fiddler and, latterly, a fluter. I love the flute. I wish I'd always played it. I love the whistle as well. I'm blessed in having really lovely instruments for all of my musical interests.
Location: Unimportant island off the great mainland of Europe
Doug_Tipple wrote:When a person asks for feedback for an instrumental performance, it seems to me that there are at least two distinct types of feedback that can be competently given. The first type of feedback will come from a skilled performer of the instrument. He/she will be qualified to mention fingering or blowing techniques and other subtleties that only a competent player of that particular instrument would be likely to know. The second type of feedback will come from someone who may not be able to play the instrument in question but is very knowledgeable about musical styles, rhythms, etc. that comes from research and years of critical listening. I think that both types of feedback can be helpful.
I agree with that, but for useful feedback, as opposed to competent feedback. I'd broaden it out still further - beyond the requirement for competence. I sometimes (IRL - can't resist pretending to be a hip young thing ) find comments from complete musical dunces useful. I play pub gigs and, to be honest, most of the audience will be people who have no clue, not just about Irish music, but about music generally. But it's mainly those people that I have to reach with my playing. So comments from them can be the most valuable of all. Of course, sometimes you have to sift through the exalted praise to get to the nuggets of criticism.
MTGuru wrote:Cubitt: Taking you at your word, you may be a very fine player, with your 30 years of ITM. But to my knowledge, no one in either the Chiffboard community or the Southern California session community has heard you play.
Incorrect.
And it's apparent that you do play out occasionally, as your avatar photo from a concert with harpist Dennis Doyle indicates.
Well done. You must have done some research. Dennis is not in the picture and I don't believe I ever commented on it, so how did you come by that bit of knowledge? I've been playing with Dennis for many years, now.
"In times of trial, swearing often provides a solace denied even to prayer." - Mark Twain
Tell us something.: Pipes have become my main instrument, but I still play the flute. I have emerged from the "instrument acquisition" phase, and am now down to one full set of pipes (Gordon Galloway), and one flute (Hudson Siccama).
I don't think that the apparent differences here are as large as they might seem. I think most would agree that sooner or later one has to hear oneself, and compare it to the sound of a skilled player, and then change as necessary. Conversely, while one is on the path to no longer needing a teacher, I find that the best teachers have a knack of isolating one thing that would improve what I am doing, so that I have something concrete to work on.
Had the great pleasure of a week of twice daily classes with Marcus Hernon, who was a great teacher, even though he didn't concern himself with theory, particular instructions on how to do this or that, or technical details of any kind (apart from explicit instrutions on how to form the embouchure). His method was to do (brilliantly), to ask us for " a little more lift", and to say "try not to play it the same way every time" . HIs method was to trust us to hear what he was doing and to hear what we could about what we needed to do. But he wasn't saying what to do and when to do it. He as trying to make the journey's goal clearer.
Also had the great pleasure of classes with Eliot Grasso, who concentrated on an analytical, reasoned approach ("This fingering is better because it's easier to obtain more overtones"). Also fantastic. Of course he did play brilliantly, but the teaching was structured, technically and detail oriented, with exercises to focus on particular issues. Anyone following his suggestions will come out a cleaner, more precise player, and have a better understanding of how the music works.
Would I want a world without both kinds of teachers? No.
Hugh
I thought I had no talent, but my talent is to persist anyway.
A fascinating post folks!
Being one who has put himself out there, asking for feedback, and posting numerous times on the posting clips thread, I find there is something to be taken away from all of the comments. Even the 'good job!' comments serve to inspire me enough to post again, or take a chance with something new. Once in a while I get an in depth comment about particulars...Jem, MT Guru, Gabriel, Rama and others come to mind... and their input is welcomed and valued. I happen to have a pretty clear idea of what some one will comment about before I even post a clip, so I am not shocked, rather affirmed in a sense. With respect to receiving feedback... yes, there are players/contributors on this board whom I may consider having a 'greater weight.' That is mainly because I listen to their clips and tune contributions and have respected and valued their playing. That said, it does not diminish the input and suggestions of those with less honed skills. I do look for examples of playing from those who provide feedback. For those who do not have audio examples, I appreciate the support and the fact that they have taken a moment to listen. Thank you all for that! I think just being acknowledged for the effort, and the risk taking is in itself, a huge amount of feedback. The more detailed assessments, well.... that is just icing on the cake!
I for one, am appreciate of all of the listeners of my posts. Thank you for acknowledging me.
I'm a little late to the party, but here are my comments.
Overall, this is a very nice effort from a self-described intermediate beginner. As others have said, you're on the right track. But there are a few things you might work on:
You breathe in the same places each time through the tune. It wouldn't hurt to vary it up. In particular, it can be nice sometimes to play through the end of a part into the repeat (or the next part), rather than stopping.
There were a few ornaments that didn't quite come out and threw off the rhythm -- were you going for short rolls in a couple of places? It might be good to slow those way down and drill them until they come out smoothly.
It felt a little flat to me... not terribly, but you might try to get a bit more lift:
Put a bit of breath pulse on the off-beats, or spread throughout the tune for emphasis
Add a bit of swing to the rhythm (but not too much, especially when playing slow)
Vary your articulation a bit more. For example, in the first phrase of the A part (ABAF ...) I might use a soft glottal stop to separate the first A from the B.
eskin wrote:
I'm not sure I agree. Certainly anyone experienced with the music on any instrument can make general comments about rhythm and flow, intonation, etc. However, specific instrument technique advice does have to come from someone who has the skills and physical distinctions on the instrument to understand both the issue player is dealing with as well as provide specific correction at a physical "do this instead" level.
I don't necessarily disagree, but to some extent it might depend on the type of advice.
My wife, who plays violin, frequently asks me for feedback on how she's playing some passage or another. Sometimes I give her fairly technical stuff in terms of phrasing, as well as things about how she's using the bow or fingering (i.e., things I can hear). My abilities as a musician are far exceeded by hers (I'm just an amateur piper, but she is a music major and a professional violinist) and I'm not a violinist at all. Sometimes I just point out a spot that doesn't sound "right" without really being able to explain why.
Either way, I can only conclude that this feedback is useful, because she keeps asking.
Coming back to an area I know a fair bit about, if a highland piper was playing his grips wrong in some way, I could easily hear that his grips were wrong, but I might not be able to provide specific corrective advice.
) find comments from complete musical dunces useful. I play pub gigs and, to be honest, most of the audience will be people who have no clue, not just about Irish music, but about music generally. But it's mainly those people that I have to reach with my playing. So comments from them can be the most valuable of all. Of course, sometimes you have to sift through the exalted praise to get to the nuggets of criticism. 
