It's a small point, but. . .

[david_h]

The internet. It can be hard to find that pesky # key.

[Cubitt]

Jem,

Good points, all. However, since you are always so deligtfully detailed (I mean that sincerely), there are a few points worthy of response:

I did not acknowledge the online sources because I don't consider them to be standard or time-honored references. Subjective omission, I grant, but it seemed reasonable to me.

Whereas I realize that your average student would not likely have Boehm's book, I would assume anyone writing a flute method would be influenced by Boehm.

[Cubitt]

If as regards a living tradition we're going to use the word "consensus", we need to keep books and players separate.

You seem to think I am arguing a point, and I'm not. Yes, the consensus comes from books. Aural tradition or not, books are our source for what is and what has gone before. They simply document what started as aural. However, I don't give a rat's patoot what anyone calls the key - I just wondered why. Can I make that any clearer?

[jemtheflute]

I would assume anyone writing a flute method would be influenced by Boehm.

Mmmmm, quite an assumption! I'd strongly suspect that, before the surge of the Period Instrument/Historically Informed Performance movement in the 1970s and its knock-on effect on musical scholarship, that very few Professors of flute at major classical teaching establishments would even have read Bohm's book.... or many of the authors of beginners' primers. But indirect influence on technical writing, yes, sure.

Re: the Woodwind Fingering Guide website - that one at least I believe is produced primarily by and on behalf of mainstream classical teachers and I'm sure would get hammered for any blatant errors, or at least have such well and truly pointed out to it, and its creators would doubtless take notice. So "time-honoured" or not, it deserves serious consideration as evidence. It might be viewed as both a representation and an exponent of the tradition of usage we are positing.

[Nanohedron]

Can I make that any clearer?

Apparently so, because while I certainly don't have your level of education, neither at the end of the day am I the dimmest of bulbs, if I may risk the hubris. I think how things are being said - what is assumed, what is juxtaposed, what may be unintentionally omitted - may be contributing to any confusion and sidetracking. If parsing a post (of yours, in this case) clears up something from my end, it has to be because it's NOT clear to me that things are on track. For example, you say "books are our source". But they are not mine; my betters in the tradition are consistently my go-to source. While I'm no obscurantist, I have bought books out of curiosity, looked at them, found them uncrucial for my purposes, and in the end put them away pretty much for good every time. And certainly I am not alone in that at all. I think that so long as such points are brought up, discussing them on their merits is not amiss. If I have a different experience, I don't see why I should count that as of little worth so long as you've opened the door, for if it is open, doesn't it mean that you've been looking through it? The way you write suggests so, to me. Which is fine, but when you make statements that suggest for all the world to me that in this discussion an oral/aural tradition may safely be ignored - even if that was never your actual intention - I admit I do get the willies. After all, I'm looking through that door from the other side, myself. Mea culpa, if it's fitting.

I think it's evident that most people in this discussion have their terminoligical habits because 1) they learned them that way, and/or 2) the circles they travel in reinforce a particular term. I don't know what more can be said by way of answer. If you really want a discussion to make the classically trained despair, check out the uilleann pipers' habit of referring to all fingerwork from the compass of D no matter what pitch their pipes are in!

[Shelp]

I learnt Bohem Jem, did "tune a day" then went on well past grade 8, i learnt is as D#, maybe it was my teacher?? , but the next key down on the foot joint i call C# not Db, as i said i dunno, its what i learnt..... BUT .... as i have ventured into trad, i find it called Eb, especially if you are trying to order a keyed flute!!!! At the flute workshop in biggar recently it was called Eb by the tutor as we talked about flute ordering... you will know who he was.

I think its fair to say we may have a majority vote here on the Eb but cubbit is not alone in having the D# factor as norm.... it matters none... just play.

[Nanohedron]

I think its fair to say we may have a majority vote here on the Eb but cubbit is not alone in having the D# factor as norm.... it matters none... just play.

Ties it up for me...

[jemtheflute]

Here's today's batch from the Facebook survey - something of a swing back to D# in certain quarters of the US!

#
Jessie Kislin Driscoll
I call it the E flat (Eb) key.

#
Matthew Giordano
Hey Jem, I see my teacher on Sat... she's Principal Flute in the orchestra and has been teaching conservatory for years, if you're still interested in the topic then I'll ask her which term she's encountered the most as well.

#
Adrianne Greenbaum
D# key. sometimes Eb key. Are there more choices?

#
Janet Lien Bowler
Eb or pinky key. Rarely D#.

#
Genevieve Blanchard
The key (only one on traverso) - but if you push me: Eb

#
Andra Bohnet
Eb key or D#, depends on the key my brain is in at the time

#
Jem Hammond
‎@ Andra - and when your brain isn't in a key, just thinking mechanism, not music? Which would you use when telling your repair tech you think that key is sticking, leaking or whatever, or when writing about a particular instrument's features?

#
Patricia George
I was taught by Jeff Weissman in a repair class to name the keys with their sharp names.

#
Andra Bohnet
probably Eb since most of the techs think in band keys

#
Andra Bohnet
although I call the other one the G#, key, maybe Patricia is right here, I think I DO call it the D# key

#
Adrianne Greenbaum
As I wrote before, D# is more common a name for me and, as was stated by another poster, I think we may be finding that the difference between D# and Eb as the name could be related to Boehm vs. trad. Not sure, however, if the classical 19th c. simple system flute would have been Eb or D#. But if I were on Jeopardy I'd probably say D#. But then again, that wouldn't be a question....

#
Adrianne Greenbaum
And as Andra said, if i'm teaching I won't refer to it in the sharps if the piece is in flats, although frankly, when teaching I do say "you forgot your pinky" when often the student (on Boehm) is forgetting to use it for middle E or something like that, and won't say the key.

#
Jem Hammond
Thanks ladies! There does seem to be a partial US/Europe split on this as Willy suggested and I rather expected, though since several American Bohm/classical only folk have said "Eb", it's clearly not universal. I do think it is about oral tradition/transmission, but not necessarily a Bohm/classical v Simple System/folkie split - seems the Eb usage is dominant in British classical circles.

[johnkerr]

You know what I call this key? "The only key on my flute I've never once used." Either that or "My right pinky finger rest."

[Aanvil]

I don't care any longer.

[mutepointe]

To put it another way, most of us Yanks refer to our country as either America or the U.S. If I saw everyone on this site calling it the U. S. of A., I might ask how that came about. I understand that it means the United States of America, so I don't need that rationalization, but given that it is not the commonly recognized name, why would someone gravitate to it?
Better?

Well, here is someone who does this a bit different.
1. I never call the USA "America". I think that's awful selfish and forgetful of the rest of the Americas and the American countries.
2. If I'm speaking about this country, I say, "United States". I'm rarely out of the country these days.
3. If I'm speaking formally, I say, "United States of America".
4. There are some Federal Background Check (fingerprint) cards that I complete at work. Amazingly, there is not a standard set of abbreviations for demographic codes. I use "USA" for nationality. One of my coworkers pointed that out to me. He uses "US". He asked me why. I said that's what the Olympic uniforms always have.

I could probably cite examples of Olympics uniforms over the years but I suppose then you'd want to use some other not yet mentioned preference for citation.

[Denny]

I don't care any longer.

I haven't change my mind about it....


I still don't care.

[I.D.10-t]

I still wonder if this is only a flute thing or if it is common for thing for keyboard instruments and other keyed wind instruments.

[Denny]

yes for keyed winds

[MTGuru]

1. I never call the USA "America". I think that's awful selfish and forgetful of the rest of the Americas and the American countries.

2. If I'm speaking about this country, I say, "United States".

Then that's awful selfish and forgetful of our neighbors to the south. You know, Los Estados Unidos Mexicanos ... The Mexican United States. Yes, that's the name of the country.

Tricky, ain't it?