Ugh! Buying Silver for Flutes....

[LewisC]

@Kevin, I have been thinking some of the same thoughts. There seem to be lots of Gemeinhardt SSs and such on the local CraigsList. Most of the SS are going in the $400 range. All it takes is a seller who doesn't appreciate what they have.

Lets see, if my c-foot silver flute weights a little less than 13ozs, minus 10% for 0.900 pure, so thats 11.7 oz, minus another ounce for pads, springs and such (probably less), that would estimate at 10.7 oz conservatively. At $30.10 (5am this morning) that would be $322, So maybe there is a complete wreck of a beat-up old flute, looks like the $250 or less would be attractive.

Just dreaming....
Lewis

[kkrell]

Lets see, if my c-foot silver flute weights a little less than 13ozs, minus 10% for 0.900 pure, so thats 11.7 oz, minus another ounce for pads, springs and such (probably less), that would estimate at 10.7 oz conservatively. At $30.10 (5am this morning) that would be $322, So maybe there is a complete wreck of a beat-up old flute, looks like the $250 or less would be attractive.

According to this, the weight varies from slightly over 11oz. to 18 oz., depending on manufacturer:
http://books.google.com/books?id=59MqAA ... te&f=false

Anyway, I'm sure you'd only be able to get a tiny fraction of the spot price for material that needs this much recycling to be valuable. Probably tough to melt at home.

[Casey Burns]

Remember, silver is sold in Troy Ounces (12 to the pound).

I've thought of that type of silver recycling myself. But unless they are stamped solid silver on the bodies, Gemeinhardts and other similar flutes are plated brass or German Silver. And the mechanisms are commonly something other than Sterling even on the Sterling bodied ones.

These "We Buy Your Gold" outfits that have sprung up everywhere are a big ripoff. I went up to one, which consisted of someone with a table at my local mall, and asked what he would give me for a 1 ounce gold coin, a Canadian Maple Leaf. He said about $660. Gold at the time was $1300. Its better to sell it on eBay and better still, to hang onto it now if you can!

Thanks for the German Silver suggestions everyone. There is a chance I might eventually revert to using it for rings. But for keys, I'll still use silver. Working properties are important. Its nice to be able to fuse this metal, which is the first step in making touches. I usually line up 3 pieces of silver (the longest one being the length of the key, in the middle, the other two either side) against each other, then fuse this all together to rough out the touch on a key. Then there is much forging on an anvil, which requires annealing 4-5 times until the touch is roughed out. I am experienced with this in silver. I am not so sure about German Silver. Also, Rio Grande only sells sheet, and then round wire, not the square wire I require for keys.

No regrets today for getting that big sheet of ring stock. Its comforting to know I have it. The scrap will accrue in price, affording me additional ring stock in the future (Rio Grande buys it back at 66% current spot for cash, 75% for credit - I usually go for the credit and get more silver). Eventually I might raise my prices a little should silver double in price again. Or simply make the rings a little thinner and narrower.

Casey

[LewisC]

Uh yes, it would take a lot of derelict flutes to pay for the furnace and fuel to run it.

The flute article was very interesting. Thanks
L

[Casey Burns]

Wouldn't you know it? Silver is down 41 cents in the last hour, probably due to Mubarak resigning (finally). I could have saved $12.

But the general trend has been upward. I'm glad I finally ordered it.

What do folks feel about the use of other metals for rings? Copper, Brass, German silver, Stainless Steel?

Casey

[Cubitt]

I personally do not like silver on a wooden flute - too shiny and pristine. I like a brushed nickel appearance that has a more earthy appearance.

However, I'm glad to know my SS Armstrong has appreciated in value, although I'm not selling.

[Sigurthr]

I've been investing in silver bullion for some time now...and I also mostly play the silver flute... When it comes time to get my next flute (which will be solid sterling) it will effectively negate my stock of bullion's value, lol.


Anyway about 8 Ozt sounds about right since the rods are steel and keys are almost never actually silver.


As for what other metals would we accept for rings; Copper on a nice dark colored or figured wood looks lovely!

[I.D.10-t]

Remember, silver is sold in Troy Ounces (12 to the pound).

And that is why a pound of feathers is heavier than a pound of silver.

[oleorezinator]

You don't remember when the brothers controlled the market.

I remember quite well. Silver went from $6/oz to somewhere near $50.
Haynes flutes skyrocketed in price to about $3500 for their standard instrument.
At the King musical instrument company, super 20 silversonic saxophones
that had sterling silver necks and bells were scrapped and sold never to be
produced again. When the silver price collapsed the flute price didn't. How convenient.
http://www.anz.com/edna/dictionary.asp? ... r_thursday

[Doug_Tipple]

Remember, silver is sold in Troy Ounces (12 to the pound).

And that is why a pound of feathers is heavier than a pound of silver.

It is?

[dcopley]

Remember, silver is sold in Troy Ounces (12 to the pound).

And that is why a pound of feathers is heavier than a pound of silver.

It is?

Yes it is. One pound of feathers weighs as much as 1.215277 pounds of silver. The silver would be weighed in troy pounds. A troy pound (equal to 12 troy ounces) is equal to around 82% of the standard pound. Or to confuse things even more, there are 14.583 troy ounces in a standard pound. Maybe the metric system is not so bad after all.

[Casey Burns]

That is correct of course, unless you decide to weigh the feathers in Troy Ounces as well.

Still no regrets on my silver purchase. Heavy resistance at $27 so if it goes that low, I am out only $90. Cheap insurance. On the other hand, I will be real happy I purchased some if this doubles in the next year as it did in this last year, and goes to $60. Note - that is $10 more than the Hunt Brother's Spike. Silver is not in a similar spike now - it never had support at $50 during the Hunt Brothers spike the way it has support at $27 now.

I will try nickel silver for rings. And maybe cast keys. I've been thinking about a lower cost version of my keyed flutes, along Folk Flute lines. I wonder how this stuff casts compared to Sterling. Fortunately, one is not out too much while experimenting.

Spinning it is also something I want to try. I actually have some experience at this for a project back in the 90s (a bagpipe for a gamelan orchestra!). Michael Hubbert once told me he was able to make bands by spinning sheet over a form, then cutting off the chucked up part. Lead-free Pewter might also work well for this.

I really shouldn't be chatty here this morning. I should be out in the workshop making keys for this low A. Am headed there eventually. That and a scad of keyless flutes. Once out the door I am off to California. Twice actually.

Casey

[jemtheflute]

I don't know very much about metal working, but why not work up your rings from extruded tube stock? Surely it can be spun and forged to thicken, attain desired profile, meet specific ID requirements etc? You wouldn't need original tube exactly the size of your rings - which are obviously variable anyway......

[Casey Burns]

Not available in nickel silver, and really expensive in sterling silver. I don't care for brass nor copper. Also, I don't like cutting it off on the lathe, sawing it, etc.

I like the fact that I can easily calculate the length of silver I need, slice and dice it on a small metal shear (the Chinese make a great tabletop one sold for nothing at Harbor Tool), bend it and solder it. If I can figure out nickel silver soldering, then I need not change my process.

Casey

[jemtheflute]

My friendly local woodwind and brass repair specialist very kindly taught me to hard solder German Silver a couple of years ago. As Dom has said, it's no big deal. Hell, if I can do it! I haven't tried making rings yet - don't have the necessary mandrel(s) or raw materials.... but I have shrunk an antique ring that was too loose by cutting it and soldering it back together. I've done several broken key solder repairs and I've soldered on replacements for sprue-rivets for springs...... My friend told me what solder and flux to obtain as well as showing me the basics - and I've had no problems yet bar fiddliness of jobs. I'm sure with your experience you won't find it a major hassle. The only "issues" seem to be with filing off any excess solder, as the solder is harder than the surrounding metal, so it can be tricky.

Off-beat thought - leaving aside your other objections, if you can't buy extruded GS tube, what about cannibalising tube from old metal Bohm flutes? The thick bit over the socket at the top of the main body joint, for example......