OT: Racism and the Irish

CraigMc · Post by **CraigMc** » Sun Feb 16, 2003 3:54 pm

LOL E = Fb

elliott · Post by **elliott** » Sun Feb 16, 2003 7:19 pm

Well. I remember the singer Johnny Beggan literally breaking down my front door and beating me up for being a Jew, and I remember being literally thrown out of the Allston Irish social for walking in the building with a flute. If it wasn't for Tommy Magee, a member of the Harps gang, I probably wouldn't be alive. And if it wasn't for the Brighton Irish social I wouldn't be playing Irish music at all.

Zubivka · Post by **Zubivka** » Mon Feb 17, 2003 1:31 am

WHERE was this, Elliott ? and how recently ?

(Unfortunately I don't know yet the location of every pub in the Univesre, though trying hard).

Wombat · Post by **Wombat** » Mon Feb 17, 2003 4:11 am

I spent a period of seven years in England ending about 20 years ago. Nick keeps reminding me how *long* ago that was. I have to agree with him that serious prejudice against the Irish is not recent. There was superficial prejudice against the Irish, Scots, French, Germans, Americans, even Australians. (Especially Australians.) Sensitive souls incapable of taking and handing out a bit of good natured ribbing might have drawn the conclusion that they were the victims of bigotry. Those of us with a sense of humour and a capacity to give as good as we get knew better. You can be Irish in England and have a great time—it's largely up to you.

Yes, they tell Irish jokes in England. There is something about Gaelic humour, Scots and Irish, that some Anglo Saxons just don't get. But let's not read too much into this. In Ireland they tell Kerryman jokes don't they? I had many Irish and Scottish friends in England. I also had many English friends. We got along splendidly.

rbm · Post by **rbm** » Mon Feb 17, 2003 5:00 am

Intresting thread this, in my experiance I have never come across the Irish being predudcied against in England, yes there are the Irishman jokes-but up here in the north of england we have "suvvenur" jokes. If you do want to find Bigoted attitudes in England then you have to look at the way people from Liverpool are treated (and they are English).

In my previous life I work in and with people from the USA, India, Norway, Italy, UAE amongst others and the only bigoted people I came across were in the UAE.

Also the only people who seemed to hold a view that the Irish were disliked by the English were Americans-who also thought that the English were repressing a nation who only wanted to smoke there pipes and drink stout in there lush green land.
The reality however was somewhat diffrent working at Harland and Wolfe (built the titanic) in Belfast.
Richard.

Lizzie · Post by **Lizzie** » Mon Feb 17, 2003 10:49 am

Thanks Nikt..i was hoping to take a trip to Ireland, and I was wondering if English were welcome. As a fact, the ani-English statements all came from American "Irish'.

Re jokes..it seems many cultures tell put down jokes about others..In France they tell Belgian jokes, in the USA they tell Polish jokes, and here in Canada they tell Newfie jokes.

Zubivka · Post by **Zubivka** » Mon Feb 17, 2003 11:23 am

Like the worst of them all :

Is the Pope Polish ?

<font size=1>/me ducks for cover, with all the probability of papists around 8oD </font>

(tentatively edited for spellin)

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Zubivka on 2003-02-17 12:24 ]</font>

Wizzer · Post by **Wizzer** » Mon Feb 17, 2003 11:28 am

My family immigrated to Canada in 1954 and I remember my father talking about the Prime minister John Diefenbaker making anti Irish campaign speeches. I remember hearing about the boats loaded with DP's (Displaced Person ) from the second world war still looking for places to take them. To be called a DP was a derogatory term.
We emigrated to the US in 1961 just in time to go thru the Civil right era.
Hated that is blatant or disguised is a terrible thing and we need to do everything we can against it. I love the proliferation of TV and the internet because it allows us to communicate with each other on a world wide basis. We can cut the political rhetoric and yellow journalistic bs out and get to know others on the personnel level.
We can learn that we are more alike that we realize and this should help us make the world a better place for our selves and future generation.

PhilO · Post by **PhilO** » Mon Feb 17, 2003 11:32 am

The Irish police captain (who's since moved on to become Police Chief in another big city)who used to be the commander of our NYPD squad kept the very same sign framed and hung behind his desk as a reminder.

Philo

nickt · Post by **nickt** » Mon Feb 17, 2003 11:43 am

On 2003-02-17 11:49, Lizzie wrote:
Thanks Nikt..i was hoping to take a trip to Ireland, and I was wondering if English were welcome. As a fact, the ani-English statements all came from American "Irish'.

Re jokes..it seems many cultures tell put down jokes about others..In France they tell Belgian jokes, in the USA they tell Polish jokes, and here in Canada they tell Newfie jokes.

True enough Lizzie. Just about every race on the planet has a neighbour somewhere that cops the jokes - I don't really think it's racism as we would understand it or object to. Aussies tell Kiwi jokes (as well as Irish and Pommie jokes), Kiwis the same in reverse, Germans tell Austrian jokes, Danes tell Swedish and Norwegian jokes, Swedes tell Norwegian jokes, Norwegians and Finns tell Swedish jokes (sorry Pan, most Nordic races tell Swedish jokes), Turks tell Greek jokes, Greeks tell Turkish jokes, and so on and on; sometimes humour is a great escape valve. The only race I know (of which I'm a part member) which doesn't is the Jews: they save everyone the bother by telling jokes about Jews (and they/[we] really DO know the meaning of racism).

2nd Wind · Post by **2nd Wind** » Mon Feb 17, 2003 12:40 pm

This topic flashes me back to the movie I recently went & seen called Gangs of New York. I had no idea what it was about really, but turns out it is about racism...against the Irish. The gangs are actually American gangs (trying to keep territory, jobs, food, politics for themselves) vs. Irish gangs (coming to America in search of food, freedom, & shelter because of the potatoe famine). This movie cause a lot of emotion especially anger for me. In a way I got educated in a part of history that somehow had escaped me until now. I love the Irish...God Bless them for their whistles, their Guinness & pubs, their country & culture, & a million other things.

...oh yeah, I hate racism.

elliott · Post by **elliott** » Mon Feb 17, 2003 1:26 pm

Since you asked, Z, 30 years ago in Cambridge MA. JB is dead or departed or both. I haven't mentioned anything that's happened since then because C&F people would know who I meant.

The point remains Irish racism against Jews and resentment of Jewish musicians who play Irish music.

burnsbyrne · Post by **burnsbyrne** » Mon Feb 17, 2003 2:16 pm

Anyone who has travelled outside their own country will attest to the fact that prejudice and bigotry exists everywhere. I think it is so visible in America because we are all from somewhere else. All of our ancestors brought their own prejudices with them and developed more when they arrived. The ex-husband of one of my numerous cousins wrote his PhD dissertation on ethnic slurs in New York City: what the various ethnic groups call each other. The only one I can remember is that the Chinese New Yorkers called the Italians "eggplants". But the point is that since we are not a homogeneous society racism has been a big problem over the years. European cities like Paris and London have been learning what can happen when an influx of foreigners changes the ethnic makeup of a city. America has always been a diverse society with ethnic and economic infighting decided in the streets. The Irish are not the only ones but they are also not blameless.
Mike

Elerossë · Post by **Elerossë** » Mon Feb 17, 2003 3:03 pm

In the town I live in, in Northern Ontario, until 40 odd years ago, the Irish were not allowed to own property in town. They literally lived on 'the wrong side of the tracks'. The mayor didn't like the fact that many of the Irish were Catholic, and *gasp* drank, so he tried to contain the problem. Anyone who wanted a drink had to go to the 'Mick part' of town.

Just my thoughts on the subject.

Kaitlin

Tom_Gaul · Post by **Tom_Gaul** » Mon Feb 17, 2003 3:23 pm

A better perspective on history, which "The gangs of New York" ignores, can be found at
http://www.civilwarhome.com/draftriots.htm or looking up The New York draft riots of 1863 on Google. Poor Irish immigrants were inducted into the Union army while richer people for $300.00 or so could buy their way out. Tragically, one form of injustice led to another when angry mobs began to attack black people. I think we are led to the conclusion that we can only judge each other as individuals and race, religion, ethnicity have little to do with (As Dr. King said so well) the content of a persons' character.
As far as this Irish Americans attitude toward English people, I love them, especially the one I married 30 years ago!

Best wishes, Tom