Hello folks… this would be a question for you cross fipplers out there.(you know who you are)
I have been feeling the need to go low- in tone that is. The problem is that I can’t make up my mind between a low whistle or a tenor recorder.
I like to play traditional music (ITRAD and other ethnic folk) and also classical music equally. In fact I have been alternating between Recorder and Whistle for about a year and a half now.
The main reason that I took to the Recorder (started on whistles three years ago) is to be able to play in more keys without half-holing.
I’ve got about 250.00 dollars saved and was thinking about saving a little longer and buying a Mollenhauer Canta tenor keyless.
Part of me though would also love the idea of a Burke low D EZ model. Something about the look of the thing that reminds me of a concert flute.
Anyway The thought ocurred to me… Would the larger holes of a low D whistle make it easier to half hole than on a high D? That would be a point in the whistles favor. Also, as far as ease of playing goes would a tenor Recorder be any easier to play (I’ve got small hands) than a Low whistle?. Just looking at Tenor Recorders, it looks like they are really not designed to use the “pipers grip”
I would welcome any comments from some of the board members who have played both and could make some suggestions… Thanks, DreamOgreen
I’m not sure why, but a tenor recorder seems easier to finger for me.
BTW-- you can get a perfectly excellent plastic Yamaha tenor for about $55. These play wonderfully and I used to play mine regularly in our semi-pro baroque ensemble a few years back. To get anything equally good in wood, you’d spend thousands. You could buy that and a low D. I’m just sayin’…
I had one of the Yamahas as well and didn’t really like it very much… It was very quiet in the lower octave and I had a problem with tuning - even with it pushed completely together, it played a little flat. That’s fine if you’re by yourself, but in a group, it was unacceptable. What you REALLY need is one of each. The whistle will have the volume and make ITM easier but is pretty much unusable for classical music as it’s not chromatic. You can get a used Viper for about $170 (ish) which would allow you to buy the Yamaha tenor recorder as well.
Thanks for the replies… I am thinking that it would bother me to play anything with keys. Having to push against a spring with an outstretched pinkie finger might be an invitation to hand strain.
What about half holing whistles like low d’s ? Are the larger holes easier or not really? It wouldn’t help with keys that have lots of sharps or flats but maybe C or A wouldn’t be too difficult.
It’s actually harder to half-hole on a low D, unless you have really big hands or a model you don’t have to use a modified piper’s grip. A low D isn’t typically played like a high whistle (or a flute); usually you’re playing with your fingers flat over the holes: http://www.chiffandfipple.com/pipers.html
This grip makes it more difficult to half-hole, because you have to move your fingers up or down, and you have less flexibility to really move them. I don’t like recommending recorders, but for what you want, the recorder appears to be the superior instrument. Personally, though, I much prefer the tone of the low whistle.
You really don’t use those keys very often. They’re for the notes C and C#(low only) so if you’re talking about Celtic/folk music they’re rarely needed. The spring pressure is pretty light and the reach for the keys is easy: that’s the whole purpose of keys-- to make difficult reaches simple. The low D hole is actually two smaller holes covered simultaneously with the ring finger, and it’s easy to open one of them for the Eb.
I guess there are differences between plastic Tenors-- mine is right on the money with regard to tuning, and I played with some pretty fussy classical recorder players
I’ll second brewerpaul’s comments on the Yamaha tenor. I’ve had mine for several years and find it easy to play and nicely in tune. Before I bought the Yamaha, I practiced with a recorder group led by an absolutely masterful player. He had nothing but plastic Yamahas. When I asked him about them his reply was “When they ask you to play Carnegie Hall, get a high-end wood recorder. Until then, a Yamaha 300 is all you need.” I use the tenor to play a little of everything with a pickup group and so far he is right. (I’ll get back to you on the Carnegie Hall thing -don’t hold your breath.)
The move from soprano to tenor recorder took a little practice but was not difficult.
All that said, I practice ITM on the whistle. I started playing Irish music on the recorder but quickly moved to the whistle. MTGuru had an interesting discussion about where the octave breaks occur on the recorder and whistle and how that affects playing various styles of music and I think that has something to do with it.
Thanks folks… After thinking about it, the Burke plus a plastic Tenor does sound kind of like the best of both worlds…
Walrii, I know what you mean re: using the recorder for Irish music. I do use my Kung Classica recorder for slow aires sometimes just because it sounds so nice. However If I try and play faster stuff, Jigs, Reels etc, the more complicated fingering gets in the way of a nice smooth flow of notes… I suppose a better Recorder player could manage though. -I just use the whistle for those tunes.
As far as the tenor goes, I saw a pic of a Dolmetsch Nova model tenor, The tone holes had quite a bit of offset to them. The pattern between the holes was in fact almost circular looking. It looked like it might be an easier stretch to manage… humm…
Daleth, you make a good point also. I tend to half-hole a whistle by pulling back and uncovering the holes on the sides. The piper’s grip would force one to move the fingers up and down instead. Sounds kinda hard to do.
Plastic tenor recorders can be great and much better than cheaper wooden models. I have several tenors including Yamahas and Aulos and the best by far IMO is the Aulos tenor 511. The 511 has a wonderful tone and is so much easier to play the top of the second octave with. I suggest you compare it with the Yamaha 304 tenor in a shop.
I just bought a Low D Wooden Sweetheart and im having a real problem playing the D sharp because the sixth hole is quite small, it has the most beautiful sound though so if anyone has any suggestions it would be appreciated - at the moment i just substitute a different note.
After reading the comments I got out my low D Howard and had no problem playing a clean chromatic scale as the holes are much bigger (and possibly because the whistle is much thinner being made of metal though i have no idea of the technical side of sound). The pipers grip isnt really an issue - I just roll my fingers back as if im about to slide. Not as fast as a high D but possible with practice.
Alternatively - I have a habbit of playing the third and sixth holes on the Low D’s with my little fingers which allow the use of a more “normal” grip (but gets a bit confusing when swapping back to the flute).
My advice is to find a metal low D with nice big holes. I like my Howard but the open C sharp is slightly flat (apparently to make the C natural nicely in tune when playing the alternate fingering of the second and third hole) so wont unreservedly recommend it.
I’m totally with Paul - the plastic Yamaha tenor is affordable, and they play really nicely.
As for half holing, I’ve found that it’s actually easier for me with piper’s grip. It might just be my pudgy fingers, but instead of having to move my finger up or down, I’ve found that if I straighten the finger at the middle joint, I can actually half hole without moving my finger at all. Takes some practice, but it’s pretty cool if it works for you.
Otherwise, the science and mystery of alternate fingerings is always a worthy study. It changes from whistle to whistle, but is fun.
My 2 pennorth… Get a Guido Gonzato low tech Low D (or make your own), maybe with alternate Eb and C bodies if he’ll do that for you, and an Aulos tenor recorder - one of the models with a key for the low C# and C - as said above, the keys are very lightly sprung and you don’t use 'em much.
Thanks for the replies… It’s funny how a tenor recorder would have an easier strectch than a low d when the recorder is in a lower key of C. Apparently , people play them with fingertips as well. I’ll just have to get both (just to compare, you understand)
Tenor recorder has a 6-finger note of D and, barring the F#, the natural scale could just as easily be thought of as D rather than C - they (scales of C and of D) involve similar amounts of cross-fingering, and the “break” between the octaves is from C or C# to D; just as on whistle or flute, the first note to be taken as an assisted harmonic of the fundamental is D, not C! (I have argued in the past that that distinction - the position of the “break” between octaves - is actually the best indicator of the true “home key” of a woodwind instrument, and by that token the descant and tenor recorder would be “in D” with a foot extension to low C, just like the flute. But I digress…) However, the tone-holes are more closely spaced on recorder as it has a steeper conoid bore than even a conoid whistle, and most low whistles are cylindrical, necessitating wider spaced and larger tone-holes.
BTW, from an orchestral/composer’s viewpoint, a D whistle would be described as being “in C” notwithstanding its natural diatonic scale because it has a direct correlation of fingered note names to written notes - the name of the fingering is actually that pitch note (as is the recorder’s): it is not a transposing instrument. A C whistle (6-finger note & natural scale) would be regarded as a transposing instrument in Bb because you would have to write a D for the player to read it as the 6-finger note which would actually sound a C, etc. i.e write a tone higher because the instrument is a tone lower than the baseline instrument.
It’s not really, y’know. A low D whistle is a concert C instrument, just like the tenor recorder. Just 2 different naming schemes. If you were to get a D+ whistle with a low C hole, it would be basically the same scale length as the C recorder.
[ I think Jem just wrote the same thing in his inimitable style. ]
I do think it helps to think of whistle and recorder as two completely different instruments, and not comparable in either/or terms despite the superficial similarities. So “both” does sound like your happiest choice. Lucky you!
The conventional wisdom about plastic recorders seems pretty solid. My older plastic Aulos 311E tenor is a nice instrument, and my Yamaha faux-rosewood soprano and alto (YRS/YRA-312B) are equally so. Plastic recorders do have a tendency to clog more than wood, but the usual remedies apply.
Of course, in practical terms, on a C recorder the second D is normally played as a fundamental, not an overblown harmonic, and the register break normally occurs between D and D#/Eb. That’s the issue that walrii referred to above. It’s possible to overblow the lower D, but it’s usually quite sharp. And the 2nd register trill D is a thumb-vented version of the bell-note C. I’m not sure how that affects your theory, but I think the rest is sound.
I wish I had your clear, economic way with words, O Guru! I’m sure I’d be dead easy to pastiche, though!
BTW, you are (of course) quite right about recorder fingering and the break - I knew I should have gone downstairs and got hold of one to run through the scale before I wrote that! Instead I just dummied it on the whistle I keep by the computer. Ooooops! In extenuation, I will plead that: a) although I own several, I only (occasionally) play upon the recorder, I do not claim to be a recorder player; b) it was c04.00 hours and I’d been sitting up half the night filing away at rebuilt key blocks on an old English flute I’m doing up - my diurnal rhythms are seriously distorted at present and I was rather brain-dead… I knew I should have checked my facts before holding forth.
As for my theory, OK, recorders are a b****y awkward odd special case (in many regards) within the wider flute family. It stands for flutes and whistles (and oboes) though.
I’m a recorder player. I have been playing recorder regularly for about 30 years and intermittently for several years longer than that. I have much more recently come to whistle.
I have fairly small hands and although I can manage the tenor recorder quite well, I have tried a few low whistles and I find the stretch just too great. I also find the Yamaha tenor stretch uncomfortable. I have a Dolmetsch Nova plastic tenor which is a very nice instrument (as is the Yamaha, btw) and I find the stretch quite comfortable. I’ve not tried the Aulos so I cannot comment on that.
I also have two wooden tenors (Clearly I have related strain of WAD). A keyless Moeck Rottenburgh which is quite quiet but is excellent for playing with in a consort and a Mollenhauer Dream Tenor which has a slightly wider bore - more like a renaissance recorder - so is a little more powerful and consequently quite good for playing traditional music. I play English traditional music rather than Irish, so the recorder works quite well. You hear it quite a lot on recordings of English music, especially for accompanying song.
More recently I have started playing wooden flute and like the tenor recorder, I find the stretch quite manageable. In fact my preferred combination is wooden flute and tenor recorder, with the recorder allowing you to play in keys the flute is less than ideal for.
It is perfectly possible to do cuts, taps and rolls on a recorder so don’t let anyone tell you otherwise. Problems come in different places to a whistle but you can do a roll on a low D with a recorder
That’s part of their appeal. They are different There is something in what you say, however. When I started playing traditional music ‘properly’, I started with whistle, but after a while I went back to recorder because the fingering of whistle and recorder are similar but not quite the same and I kept finding myself trying to do recorder fingerings. It was really only with flute I got that little problem sorted out and started playing whistle again.
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It was really only with flute I got that little problem sorted out and started playing whistle again.