When I listen to whistle recordings and videos, there’s no big volume difference between high and low octaves.
Take the “Inner Light” theme of Star Trek for example: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hrbL3gw2a0E
It sounds wonderful and dreamy even in the high octave!
I know that on my flute, which I’m also learning right now, the higher octave is played by focussing the airflow. You don’t blow harder, you just accelerate the airflow.
I understand that on a penny whistle you have to blow harder (= overblow) to get into the upper registers. Right?
When I do so, there’s a big increase in volume. Even when I hit the note (no shrill squeaks), the volume is pretty high and unpleasant to the ear. It’s not shrill sounding but just too loud to bear the high notes (it’s a Hi D, which I’ve read is the “standard” or most commonly used tin whistle.
Physically it makes total sense to me, that a harder blown note is louder but I just wanna make sure I don’t do anything wrong.
Either it’s normal and I just can’t stand those high notes (which I have no probs with on my electric guitars) or I’m doing it wrong??
Since I’m a rocker guy, I playmy guitars waaayyy louder than the Whistle could ever do! Strange!!
It is the nature of the beast. Blowing a note in the higher octave needs a faster stream of air. Since a whistle has a fipple with a windway of fixed dimensions, the only way to get a higher velocity of the air jet is by blowing harder. This is different to a flute, where you can adjust your embouchure and can create a higher velocity by narrowing (tightening) the embouchure, and reducing the distance to the sounding edge as well.
So naturally high octave notes are a lot louder (about double at least) than low octave notes on a whistle. You need to live with it. The amount of extra loudness varies from type and make of whistle, and it varies between the notes. But there will always be a big difference, even for a whistle which is claimed to be “balanced”.
If the high notes are too loud to bear, try playing a whistle in a lower key, like Bb for instance. In my experience Bb was a lot more “family friendly” than a high D whistle.
As to the balance of high and low whistle notes in recordings: most likely such recordings will have been processed and dynamically compressed, to reduce the extra loudness of high notes.
It’s all in the voicing of the whistle. Getting octaves equal in volume is a balancing act-- if you voice it to get a really solid low register you’ll have to blow hard to get the upper. Similarly, if you voice it for a really easy top register, the lowest notes will be shaky to nonexistent.
Paul, I don’t dispute that, apart from that it is impossible to get octave notes equal in volume, not even close to equal. That’s why I elaborated on the physics in my post. So often people talk about well balanced octaves, when in fact there always is a huge difference in air pressure and volume of low and high octave notes. The balancing act a whistle maker attempts is as you describe: finding some sort of working compromise between the low and the high notes, but without ever achieving anything close to even volume of notes.
This has nothing to due with the playing itself, but with recordings doesn’t how one use the microphone distance help octave balance? Basically, I am wondering if one can really expect the same volume balance as heard on some if not many recordings.
I agree, I’ve done lots of recordings in the past but I simply did not expect the volume difference THAT drastically as in Penny Whistles.
Well, with the Sweetone I can go at least two notes higher than on the other ones before getting “ear cancer”
Maybe I’m just one of the guys who prefers low whistles and flutes. I’ll find out. Not much of a financial loss if I end up not playing the D whistles anymore but I’m not giving up yet.
Once I’ve decided about which Whistle I like best, I’ll order the same model in a lower key (no need for further testing then).
I think you will have to bear in mind Sweetones and Shaws represent only a limited and specific corner of the whole range of whistles.
It’s also not a great idea to think every maker is consistent in design through the keys. Some are great at one key but not so great at the next. Take each whistle on it’s own merits, don’t assume everything will be fine.
There’s definitely some track processing or working the mic going on, or both. I haven’t checked the exact decibel amounts when setting the record volume, but there is a very noticeable jump between the low and high notes. I’d guess it at a good 20 decibels between some of 'em, that’s not including the 3rd octave.
And from personal whistle making experience: The neighbors can hear me checking the second octave tuning/voicing even when all the doors and windows in the garage are closed.
I’ll second (or 3rd?) that a B flat, or even a C, would be a nice key to have around to keep peace with the family and neighbors. Eventually you’ll get used to the loudness of the high notes though…or maybe lose a little hearing…I’m not sure which really.
Sweetones and Shaws wouldn’t for examples be whistles I’d touch if I could avoid it. In other words, they represent only a limited and specific corner of the whole range of whistles.
Is that a roundabout way of saying you don’t like ‘em? Just wonderin’.
Personally, I like the Shaws very much, but I wouldn’t consider them easy players. Just the opposite with the Sweetones. YMMV.
Regarding the high notes - unlike the flute, there is no volume control of course. But as you develop your breath control, you’ll probably get a better feeling for the amount of push needed for the higher notes (which affects tuning as well as shrillness). This also depends on the particular whistle, of course.
I think you’ll like your Walton’s Mellow with its focus on the lower 8ve, balancingwise.
My favorite whistle is a Freeman-tweaked Gen Bb. It really is just the perfect range and really pretty. Someday I might look after a Bracker narrow bore because I’ve heard they’re nothing short of incredible. I’m well-known for my dislike of the high octave on a D whistle, but I’ve found that going for a narrow bore option, when one exists, tends to produce both the sound and the volume I’m looking for.
I feel the same way. And if a person is playing on their own, and not in a bigger session, I don’t think having a lot of volume is necessary for any reason.
That being said, the clarke originals are on the quiet side already.
I also second the recommendation for a Bb whistle. If you are on a budget, the generation Bb is not a bad whistle. I think it costs somewhere around 5$, so there is no reason to not give it a try eventually. The second octave is far from being shrill. I don’t think I am the only one who thinks that this is one of Generation’s better keys. I don’t play the other generations anymore, but I still pick up the Bb. I think it’s a good whistle.
I’ve listened to a couple of sound samples and they seem to have a very “airy” or “smokey” sound, right?
I’m looking for a sweet and clear tone with less “airflow noise”, even though I start to like the Shaw’s airy sound. I will definitely keep that one until I have more experience.
I’ve already decided to not touch the Clarke Original again. I just don’t like anything about it. I’ll sell it.
After playing the Sweetone again this afternoon, it’s become my favorite out of these three.
I certainly will check out a Bb, thanx for the advice! Budget is not a factor in tin whistles (unless you go custom). Many of them cost as much as a set of strings for my guitars
Low whistles are a different topic, of course.
I’m in the early stages of working with software to assist whistle design, and I can see there is scope for smoothing out the volume difference. While a volume difference is inevitable, we can design a whistle so the upper octave is in tune with less breath pressure (playing closer to the first register than the third), and so the transitions from note to note are smoother (similar breath pressure for B, c#, d, e, and for high b, c#, d).
I’m always intrigued when instrument crafters offer advice or counsel on design and it’s impact on playability. I have an engineering and technical service background so I’m particularly fascinated when the discussion focuses on improving existing technology and while whistles are not generally considered high-tech, there is certainly something to be said for how individual makers continue to tweak the technology to achieve a desired outcome in the continuing search for this perfect balance. Hans and Paul, thank you for reminding me about how much thought goes into this simple but wonderful instrument.
Though I agree with much that’s been offered by others regarding the greatly varying degrees of volume and even breath pressure built into each makers instruments in order to achieve a predetermined playing qualities, I disagree that the high D should be excoriated as it often is, particularly when comparing off-the-shelf instruments to customized. As proof that it’s not strictly about price, I can assure you that neither a Sindt, a pre-owned Schultz Thin Weasel or even a Bluebird would be described as “shrill” or even loud at the high end. My Busman high D was certainly, by design, loud across it’s range but particularly above the second octave G, as I expected. But when Paul made an extra D+ tube for me so I could get to that occasional but heretofore unavailable below-the-bell-note C, (Ashokan Farewell becomes sublime) the balance improvement was amazing with negligible effect on overall volume.
You don’t have to settle for an unpleasant sounding high range in a high D whistle. Although, you can choose to do so. My experience when playing instruments where too much emphasis is placed on achieving that perfect balance of pressure/volume across two octaves is that the instrument loses much of it’s harmonic overtones and becomes very blase’ sounding. IMHO it’s the differences in the makers conceptual design that makes instruments more or less suitable for certain tunes or settings. I don’t know any musician who only owns one instrument and most of them play instruments that all cover the same range of keys/notes, unlike whistles. That’s why you will always need more than one in most keys if you are serious and want to really experience the scope of this wonderful instrument.
My last thought on this is that Bb is a wonderful key. But if you want to play ITM or at least stay within an uncomplicated range when playing with others, I’d consider moving down one (half) step (no pun intended, well..maybe) to an alto A. Then you can still play in D easily and the fiddle players will love you. It, along with alto/low F, are easily my favorite keys after high D.
I fully agree on part one, even though I experienced that on guitars, not flutes or whistles due to lack of experience with the latter!
As for part two:
I love low D, I love G and I love A as well. Bb is a key I will certainly try later as well.
I will play ITM every now and then because I like it very much but please don’t kill me … after 4 or 5 songs it’s getting … annoying. I had friends who played ITM in their band and I loved watching them play live but I usually left after half the gig. I like it … but in doses
I’m more into chilling ballad type of music, even with whistles but that won’t keep me from learning a couple of ITM songs as well.
YMMV.
That probably means going ultra sonic?