Tuning Question for the makers:

Irish Flute
1

I’ve a question and I’m hoping some of the makers who visit the board from time to time will chime in:

When you are tuning a simple-system flute, do you have a certain temper in mind?

I’m pretty sure you’re not using an electronic tuner over maybe more than just one or two notes in each octave…and if you did try to tune a flute by matching all the notes to a digital tuner, I’m pretty sure it wouldn’t work, because as you changed one thing to make one note closer, another note or notes will be pushed further off target. I don’t think you can even tune a Boehm-system flute that way…fact is, I know you can’t, because the venting height of the keys changes the pitch, often non-intuitively.

So are you tuning with a drone and trying to basically set up just intervals in D as your starting point and then tweaking from there, or do you have some kind of temper or maybe even flute-specific template in mind?

I’m thinking along the lines of something like “tune the bottom D 10 cents flat to pull the third octave G down to pitch, but you’ll need to sharpen the low E a bit or high E will be way low”? (I made that up, but it’s an example of the kind of notes I suspect you wind up keeping for yourself when you get into making instruments.)

Forgive me if what I’m asking for is info you’d prefer to keep private.

It’s just that I have lately become intensely curious about tempers and tunings and how the tuning of the simple system flute evolved to the keyed Irish flute of today.

Thanks for any info or insight!

–James

2

Hi James,
I think most of the makers don’t have much tuning to do on there models, once the template fo there flutes is dialed in. Just minor tuning of the different notes, using a electronic tuner. I prefer some unjust tuning in my flutes, the low D a little flat, the F# is also a little flat. I shoot for getting the A,B and G and E spot on. At least that is with the R&R design, for the Pratten the tuning is much better. I am following the original R&R design pretty close, just modifying the tuning for 440, moving the lower tone holes up a little and reducing the size of the upper holes. I know some makers like a more just tuning, but for my ear the tone just sounds to boring… The hardest model to get right, would have to be with the Rudall design. The Pratten is a much easier flute to tune.
Now when I am re-tuning an antique, that is a little more tricky, as you are limited to the original design, not to mention the historical significance of the flute. If the tuning is set for a lower pitch, say A=420 or 430 htz, then, if possible, shorten the space between the A and the G, and maybe shorten the foot joint at the socket. The tuning can also be adjusted by reducing the A and B hole with some melted shellac. This is the same modifications done on the new flute to get it to play in 440.
My two bit cents worth…

3

Peep:

Do I have a “temper” in mind when designing a flute? Yes. Any Flute designer worth her/his salt will design a flute/fife to a general tone color/temper from the start. I do this using mathematics and the properties of acoustic physics. The “basic” formulae are not dificult to learn and can be done with a simple scientific calculator. Here are some “generalities” about flute acoustics that affect tonal color.

Bore Diameter: Cylindrical; As the bore diameter increases, the flute/fife will favor high frequency harmonics and sound more “flutey”. As the bore diameter decreases, these weaker high frequency harmonics are filtered out and a more “reedy” tone is acquired. This also applies to each tonehole. Larger/flutey, smaller/reedy.

Tonehole spacing(nodal placement) is also affected by bore diameter. As the cylindrical bore increases in diameter, the tonehole spacing will compress together. The reverse is also true but both within a “window” of space. If the bore is to large, the windows overlap and toneholes go silent.

Tapered bores: Decreasing angle; As the angle of the taper decreases from cylindrical at the head to a smaller diameter at the foot, the nodal positions of the first,second and third registers etc.(nodal spacing) will compress, but not the fundamental register nodal placement.

This means that the natural flattening in the upper registers can be corrected. Recorders do this to match/tune registers in place of a flute’s adjustable headjoint plug. The side effect is a more reedy tone with restricted airflow(air column).This also limits the octave range to 2 or 3 octaves.

The Rudall type flutes use taper in the foot joint to adjust/compress the spacing of the lower toneholes and also to increase acoustic power of these weaker low notes.

I recommend the cheap amateur flute maker books of Lew Paxton Price (secrets of the flute)and Bart Hopkins(air columns and toneholes) [one source here] as well as other craft manuals. Practice makes perfect!!
http://www.shakuhachi.com/TOC-CM.html

You may also know of Pete Kosel’s “Flutomat”?
http://www.cwo.com/~ph_kosel/flutomat.html

4

It might be a tad confusing, as Jon seems to be using the term “just” in a different way than it is usually used when discussing tuning.
There are many possible approaches to tuning, but the two usually under discussion are “equal temperament” and “just intonation”.
Equal temperament is how electronic tuners are tuned, and approximates how pianos and guitars are tuned (yes I know pianos are not strictly tuned to equal temperament, but they way they are tuned is close enough to be contrasted against just intonation).
Just intonation is a method in which each note of the scale is tuned so as to create a beatless consonance with the fundamental. The vast majority of bagpipes are tuned “just” as each note is heard against a fixed drone note.
Jon says his tuning is “unjust” in that F# is a tad flat. Actually, a slightly flat F# in the key of D is in agreement with Just Intonation, and such an F# could be said to be “tuned just”. I think Jon is using “just” as meaning “in agreement with equal temperament”, which is exactly contrary to its normal meaning when discussing tuning systems.
Equal Temperament and Just Intonation are most in agreement in the 4th and 5th which would be G and A on a set of uilleann pipes in D. The two systems are most at variance in the major 3rd and major 6th (F# and B), which in Just Intonation are tuned 14 and 16 cents flat of their Equal Temperament positions.
The differences between the two systems are as follows:
D 0
E +4
F# -14
G -2
A +2
B -16
These are assuming that D is the drone note. The +/- is the deviation from the note’s Equal Temerament position (where the note is on an electronic tuner).
C is a special case, as on bagpipes it’s often tuned to -31, not the “just” position, but the “harmonic” position, in agreement with the 7th harmonic of the Harmonic Series.
Now, the trouble with uilleann pipes is that certain notes are usually tuned differently in the two octaves. E is usually 10 to 20 cents flatter in the 2nd octave, B is usually 10 to 20 cents sharper in the 2nd octave. This does not happen by choice but is a result of the strange acoustics of the uilleann chanter and its reed. Generations of pipe makers have striven to overcome these quirks without total success.
Flutes are different in that, at least in general, notes will agree in the two lower octaves if the cork is properly set.

5

As Socrates stated:
“All I know, is that I know nothing”

There are many possible approaches to tuning, but the two usually under discussion are “equal temperament” and “just intonation”.
Equal temperament is how electronic tuners are tuned, and approximates how pianos and guitars are tuned (yes I know pianos are not strictly tuned to equal temperament, but they way they are tuned is close enough to be contrasted against just intonation).
Just intonation is a method in which each note of the scale is tuned so as to create a beatless consonance with the fundamental. The vast majority of bagpipes are tuned “just” as each note is heard against a fixed drone note.
Jon says his tuning is “unjust” in that F# is a tad flat. Actually, a slightly flat F# in the key of D is in agreement with Just Intonation, and such an F# could be said to be “tuned just”. I think Jon is using “just” as meaning “in agreement with equal temperament”, which is exactly contrary to its normal meaning when discussing tuning systems.

Thank you for clearing that up.. It was un-just of me to put it in those words. My comment at the top of the page, follows suit.

Equal Temperament and Just Intonation are most in agreement in the 4th and 5th which would be G and A on a set of uilleann pipes in D. The two systems are most at variance in the major 3rd and major 6th (F# and B), which in Just Intonation are tuned 14 and 16 cents flat of their Equal Temperament positions.
The differences between the two systems are as follows:
D 0
E +4
F# -14
G -2
A +2
B -16
These are assuming that D is the drone note. The +/- is the deviation from the note’s Equal Temerament position (where the note is on an electronic tuner).
C is a special case, as on bagpipes it’s often tuned to -31, not the “just” position, but the “harmonic” position, in agreement with the 7th harmonic of the Harmonic Series.
Now, the trouble with uilleann pipes is that certain notes are usually tuned differently in the two octaves. E is usually 10 to 20 cents flatter in the 2nd octave, B is usually 10 to 20 cents sharper in the 2nd octave. This does not happen by choice but is a result of the strange acoustics of the uilleann chanter and its reed. Generations of pipe makers have striven to overcome these quirks without total success.
Flutes are different in that, at least in general, notes will agree in the two lower octaves if the cork is properly set.

OK, now I am just confused… :smiley:
But seriously, I should have taken music class, instead of surfing all those years. What I attempt to do with my flutes, is to make them sound as nice as I can, but when it comes to the jargon, I am truly lost.

6

One of the reasons that side-blown flutes are difficult to tune is inherent in how the tone is produced on a flute. There is no standard way of blowing a note on the flute, so frequency flucuations from person to person are to be expected. When I blow a note on a flute and at the same time watch the needle on a digital tuner, I can observe a frequency flucuation of at least 40 cents, depending on how hard I blow and the angle that I direct the stream of air over and into the embouchure hole. Somewhere near the middle of this 40 cent range is what we can call the average or median pitch of the note. The problem is that most likely another person will get a slightly different pitch than I did, mainly because they are blowing the flute differently from the way that I did.

I used to set the intonation my pvc flutes by ear, without any comparison to reference notes on a tuner or keyboard. I simply would listen for intervals that were pleasing to me. Of course, I did set the fundamental note of the flute to a reference standard. This intonation was obviously my idea of “just” intonation. However, the flutes went out to customers who would compare my intonation with the equal tempered intonation of a digital tuner. Some of them complained that my flutes were out of tune. Rather than having to go into a discussion of equal temperment versus Just intonation, which neither one of us would really understand all that well, I decided to adjust the intonation of my flutes so that the notes would closely match the notes of a tuner.

I have found that most of my customers are quite satisfied with this equal-tempered scale. I might add that not all of my customers are musicians that are just starting with the flute. This week I received a repeat flute order from a teacher at a music school in Norway. He specifically mentioned that he was pleased with the intonation of the flute.

7

First, thanks for all the wonderful replies!!!

And please don’t get me wrong–I think equal temper is a pretty good way to tune a flute.

Works for Boehm-system just fine.

Shoot, works for Prattens pretty well, too. If not equal temper they are very close.

And it’s not really the Pratten I’m looking at–it’s pretty much equal temper and where it deviates like on the C-sharp, it’s a pretty obvious compromise.

The older flute scale is what fascinates me, with its low F-sharp and low D, sharp A and B, flat C-sharp…

Just trying to work the problem starting with the Baroque traverso and its tuning compromises, which again are so extreme that they are pretty obvious, and work the problem forward to see how that “old flute scale” came about, and also how it compared to the popular tuning schemes of the time when it was played.

I’m not taking up making flutes–I wish I could afford the equipment! as I’d love to try–but that’s just not gonna be in the cards this lifetime. Maybe next time 'round the Wheel if there be one…

Also still just curious about the approach used to fine-tune a flute.

I went round and round on this subject with a traverso maker on a mailing list years ago, and finally got him to understand what I was asking (which was its own challenge)–then he stops arguing, and says “Oh! You mean that! I don’t know how I do that…I just do.” :imp: :laughing:

Anyhow, I thank you for your kind answers, and if anybody has more thoughts, please share them.

–James

8

I think the critical point is that playing “in tune” varies with the environment you’re playing in. An Irish fluteplayer who is playing along with a guitarist will need to play in Equal Temperament to sound in tune. The same fluteplayer playing the same flute along with an uilleann pipe tuned to Just Intonation will sound “out of tune”, as the flute’s F# and B will sound too sharp against the same notes on the uilleann chanter. (Not that uilleann pipes are always strictly tuned “Just”. My uilleann chanter is tuned to Equal Temperament because of the gigs I do. Also, most uilleann pipers I’ve heard do not have their B’s tuned to the true “Just” interval of -16 cents.)
I myself have always tuned my flutes and whistles to Equal Temperament because I do studio gigs and play in a group with a guitarist.

9

This is certainly true.

I also know from experience that there are no flutes that just magically play in tune. Doesn’t matter if you’re talking wood or silver, simple-system or Boehm, a flute must be played in tune.

There is still something particularly nice about that “old flute scale,” though. I’m still hoping one of these days we can learn a little more about how it came about.

–James