I know this has been beat to death, I’m thinking this is maybe my turn to beat this to death.
I recently went through the process of choosing either tuneable or non tuneable whistles when placing my order for 6 overtons from Colin Goldie. I had debated on this for some time, in the end went with non tuneables for a couple reasons. Basically those were
a) I don’t play with folks yet with great frequency so it tends not to matter, but more importantly:
b) I had the priviledge of talking with Brian Finnegan after a show he did in my part of the world. He of course is considered one of the better whistlers in the world, and uses overtons. I thought I had noticed that some of his whistles were actually non tuneable, but playing with a fiddler, a guitarist and a guy playing the bodhran, how could that be? Sure enough after the show I spoke with him, and some were non tuneable. Then he told me something I may never forget “you just have to trust your whistle”. Basically that was followed with the idea that you can blow your whistle quite easily in and out of tune, whether it’s tuneable or not, so unless the temperature in the room is so out of whack to make your whistle too flat or sharp no matter what you do, most tuning issues are controlled by the player and not the whistle.
Tried this on a electronic tuner, just to blow harder and softer, of course the volume changed but there was also significant changes in pitch.
Then I was still nervous about the choice. Colin Goldie himself reassured me on this point, saying that non tunable whistles certainly isn’t a bad choice, and i wasn’t lead to believe that everyone should without question buy tunables…otherwise, why would top end makers make non tunables?
having said all that i am just looking for more feedback on this. Certainly if ever the occasion arrises that i do need a tunable whistle, I won’t hesitate to get one and I will not try to blow a non tunable into tune when it cannot be done at the sacrifice of volume or what not. I do have a tuneable alba and some dixons so, I am not opposed, just not sure the decison is is as apparent as one is flexible and one absolutely isn’t
There’s a point where your whistle can be so out of tune as to be unplayable with others. I have a Chieftain A that is 25 cents flat, and it’s pretty much unplayable with others.
Could I blow it into tune? Sure, if I wanted my breathing techniques to be so focused on that single whistle that I didn’t care about playing any other whistle, because how I practiced with that whistle would affect my blowing on other whistles. When a whistle is out of tune that bad, it is NOT easy to blow it into tune.
I don’t think it’s so much a matter of “trust the whistle” as “trust the maker”. A good maker will test the whistle and make sure it’s more or less in tune. That makes a big difference.
A lot of it can become how much work you want to put into being able to adjust to each whistle to compensate for its lack of tuning. Do you want to spend a lot of time on a whistle learning to blow specifically for that whistle to put it in the correct tuning? And then, are you confident in your ability to alter the tuning instinctively when you switch to a different whistle?
Why do high end makers make non-tunable whistles? Because it’s a damn sight cheaper and quicker to produce a non-tunable whistle than a tunable.
Far be it from me to contradict Brian Finnegan, but unless you have a group you play with that is happy to retune their instruments every time you switch whistles (and I’ve met precious few that are that patient), I’d say tunable whistles are better for small group playing. I could be wrong; maybe some whistlers are good enough to automatically adjust their breath control to blow any whistle in tune, but in that case, the thing to say would be “you just have to trust yourself” not “you just have to trust your whistle”.
Of course, for session playing, it’s not a huge deal unless you’re playing a whistle that’s 20 cents or so off. For solo playing, it doesn’t matter at all as long as the instrument is in tune with itself.
Yes, that’s true too, you certainly do have to trust yourself. Of course, you have to have faith in your whistle, myabe I’m alone in this, but there are some tunes just base on some aspects where i will pick up one whistle rather than another as i am more comfortable with it in that regards. Also in the sense that it will be in tune if you’re playing it properly… I mean, you can easily blow a tunable out of line, there is still discipline needed on both sides
I guess my fear is that a tuning slide can become as much a set of crutches as ait can a convenience.
Also, with the chieftain that is 25 cents off, that’s why I made the point of mentioning that quality of whistle make a difference. There is no question that the quality of a whistle may demand a tuning slide for that exact reason.
As far as playing whistle differently, somehow i think that is somewhat inevitable. For instance, Overtons, unless you really blow into them and play pretty aggressively, will clog. That’s what they are meant for I think. Some others on the other hand, my macneil comes to mind, can be played much more softly. Because of this, yes i do have a tuning slide and enjoy just because it is so flexible that way, and required. If I play it softly I have to adjust it to keep it in tune. I have however found very whistles that are as forgiving as that one though.
Anywho, maybe i am just inclined towards overtons and the fact that on average they have to be blowed hard to really get the best of out of them, and are alwats so amazingly in tune to begin with. I do know there aren’t many Overons that leave 25 cents off though, if one ever has (Pretty sure Colin would come get it himself if it was)
Thanks for the reply dameon, it is exactly this kind of discussion I am looking for
I find with good whistles that the tuning slide is never used, in my case.
Every whistle I have (including the untuneable Chieftains) is externally
in tune. Everybody else I’m playing with has electronic tuners. I prefer
whistles without tuning slides. I have both tunable
and untunable and just play them. YMMV, but I prefer
not to purchase slides.
I absolutely love that video Of course i think it’ll be agreed that these two could probably get a beautiful and in tune sound from a bag of old rusty nails, hahaha.
I agree that in a perfect world, the tuning slide rarely gets used. I am sure that many individuals have used their slides so infrequently, that the slide has become ‘frozen’, so to speak… I am also not worried that a quality maker will release an instrument that is 25 cents flat or sharp…
The importance of a tuning slide to me lies in being able to play in public, in all sorts of temperature and humidity situations. Many times during an indoor over-air-conditioned, low humidity concert, or outside in 95F+ degree, high humidity weather, the tuning slide has spelled the difference between being able to play the whistle with the band, or sitting out that tune or song. In these instances, the intonation of the whistle is highly dynamic, and can change quite drastically during an hour performance.
Ziggysp2000: I own a non-tunable set of Hoover whistles. I treasure them. I play them at home, all the time. However, I have ceased trying to use them in concert. I understand the difference in price between Colin’s tunable and non-tunable instruments. You are about to spend quite a lot of your hard-earned money on 6 non-tunable Overtons. Overtons last forever. They will not wear out. Ergo, unless you decide to sell them, they will be with you for quite a long time. It might be good to ensure in your mind that playing with other instrumentalists and vocalists is truly not in your future.
I love my Overtons, and the rest of my whistle collection. They get played a lot… Having to care for the tuning slides takes just a few minutes, from time to time. Most of the time, these slides are not needed. However when they are needed, they are REALLY needed.
You have picked a fine whistle-smith family with which to deal. Colin and Brigitte are stand-up people.
Good luck with your purchase, and the best to you.
Byll
Indeed, and that fear of the session where I’d be way out of tune without repair does scare me. I’ll get an overton tuneable if that does become an issue…if anything, it gives me another reason to support the Goldies Until then i will try my luck. First hand information is always the best kind, with non tunables i give myself the chance to stand corrected and to learn for myself
Brian Finnegan is quite an impressive player and I’m in awe every time I see him play.
Have you played Overtons before, or will this be your first experience? What keys are you getting?
I’m certainly no authority on Overtons but have a non-tunable Overton sop D that I play in sessions and with our band, and it’s extremely accurate when warmed up. And as mentioned, it can be blown in or out of tune as needed if those variances in pitch are slight. Obviously if a guitar is 1/4 step flat or sharp, there’ll be problems and that’s when you need to diplomatically ask them to check their tuning. This whistle is dead-on in both basic pitch (A440) and with itself through both octaves and into the third. The tone is unique and simply wonderful. Love it.
Enjoy your new Overtons and I’m sure you’ll have absolutely no problems with the non-tunable aspect of these exceptional instruments.
I too almost never use the slides on my whistles since I play with the same guitarist who always uses an electronic tuner. But sometimes outdoors or in very cool or warm conditions I need to tweak it just a bit. There have been a couple of times I’ve had to retune significantly when playing with a piano or concertina which can get pretty far off concert pitch but remain in tune with themselves. Even though I seldom use them, when I need them I want them to be there, so I will probably continue to buy tunable whistles.
Hi, I am getting 6 keys actually. I already have a low D from 2001 (Colin Goldie) and that was of course the whistle that made going to Colin for a few more whistles an obvious choice. So following the low D, I am getting a Soprnao D, mezzo A, B flat, Alt G and F and just for fun and i think it’s just too cool, a bass G. The bass G was fun to order because the Goldies weere afraid i may not be able to physically play. As they should, it was has a crazy stretch from both fipple to bottom hand (40+ cm’s) and stretch from 5 - 6th hole (a bit more than 6 cm’s) I have long arms and big hands so it turns out not to be a problem, or so i hope
Following up on Tim’s comments…there seems to be an emerging trend, tuning slides are mostly to cope with harsh temperature \ conditions, that is too say if you were are holding a finely tuned whistle like an overton. Otherwise they may be eeded to correct any initial tuning problems. I agree that having them might be a bit of peace of mind…I just like to think that i will play with these, if ever I do need a tuning slide whistle, I wil know why, tune it, then play and control my airflow like I would with a non tunable to correct the pitch.
Keep the feedback coming, very enlightening, I am indebted to all of you
I have to admit my experience is quite different. I’m lucky enough to get to play regularly in several great (indoor!) sessions, and I’d say the norm there is to adjust your tuning at least three or four times in an evening. Tuning always drifts as instruments get warm (or cold), and different people enter and exit the group. I don’t know anyone who regularly plays a non-tunable whistle or flute in a session.
Just as food or thought, I suppose there might also be a perception, with so many hand-made whistles on the market today, that a tuning slide denotes a ‘high-end’ instrument. I suppose it’s a bit easier to justify spending a couple of hundred dollars if it’s not just a tube with some holes in it. After all, practically every classical wind instrument from the piccolo to the tuba is tunable, and a tuning slide might be seen as making a tin whistle a ‘real’ instrument.
I hope that doesn’t cause a fight, but somebody had to say it.
You know Tim, I think that is a very astute observation. Well done. Funny part is a part of me wants to think the opposite, that a very high quality whistle doesn’t need one but I am willing to concede that isn’t entirely the case I do think however that your observation is one of the factors that did make me afraid of non tunables. “What am I giving up?” sort of thing…
I also have to admit that for me, a whistle is meant to be very simple in nature, it’s a rustic instrument. I guess having it non tunable adds to the romance of that idea for me. No comment on how justified that is in the real world It does however help me feel more comfortable with the non tunables.
Maybe they can get a beautiful and in tune sound from a bag of
old rusty nails, but would they want to? Doyle isn’t playing on
old, out of tune strings because, after all, he can compensate.
Maybe there are exceptions, but pros generally want
optimal equipment, and they are willing to pay for
any advantage. If slides are any help under
the circumstances in which McGoldrick plays, he would
have one; and it probably isn’t because
he’s a wizard that they don’t help him; I’m a rank
amateur and they don’t help me either.
I mean, if slides help you, get em. Maybe there are people
who need them in their circumstances. Sure I can conceive
of situations where a slide would help on a whistle,
but I haven’t run into one for years. FWIW.
You know, most professionals do play tunable whistles. Including quite a lot of people who bought Generations and pulled off the head so they would be tunable, so it’s not simply a matter of wanting a flashy whistle.
Though I did think of one example I’ve seen of a non-tunable whistle in sessions – ace whistle player Dale Dahl sometimes plays a non-tunable low D (a Shaw, maybe?) in sessions. He has a very simple way of getting around the fact it’s not tunable. If he feels like it’s not in tune with the session, he puts it away and pulls out a different (and tunable) whistle.
To respond Jim Stone, no I know they wouldn’t actually play a bag of nails…I exxagerated to say how nice a tone they can get from whistle that I don’t believe could at this stage of my whistling adventures Also I always thought Michael McGoldrick used a tunable kerry pro, i think this video is an exception to that more than anything. Pros play good whistles (some use cheaper ones, but still good)… this may be a abnomaly not that many instruments share… I don’t think it’s common for pianists, for instance, tu use cheap equipment intentionally.
Anywho, ultimately you agree tuning slides are not absolutely required I think (or not yet), depending on previous mentioned factors,and that’s where I’m leaning as well.
meanwhile i think Dale Dahl echoes my thoughts exactly…play the non tunables till you can’t sometimes you just want to use a specific whistle…and if it’s non tuanble and you can get away with it, why do otherwise?
My own personal opinion on the subject is if you buy a tunable whistle then you have the option to tune. If you don’t like tunable whistles or don’t see the need for it, then you don’t need to fiddle with it, just leave it at it’s basic setting. If you sell it later on the new owner may be buying it because the option to tune is there for them.
I bought my Overton Low D in tunable version even though I, as a beginner have absolutely no idea how to use this function properly. But it may just be something that proves invaluable later on down the track when my skill levels increase. Who knows, I may actually be good enough to play in a public setting or with other musicians one day. If I never have to use it well and good, but it’s there as an option that non tunables can never offer.
If it’s just an asthetic thing for you then, I can see the point, depending on the brand of whistle. Some tunables do look a little bit like they’re ready to give birth, but then if it doesn’t look pleasing to me I wouldn’t buy it. Unless of course it sounded better than anything else, in which case, I would think, you could see past any inherent ugliness and focus on the pure beauty of the sound it produced.
Just my thoughts on the matter anyway.
Another advantage to tuning slides in my circumstance is that my low whistles beome more portable. I keep them in a drumstick bag that fits into the outside pocket of my mandolin case. But I have to break down the low whistles or they’re too long to fit. I’m sure that wasn’t the intention of the builder, but it works for me.
I do think however that your observation is one of the factors that did make me afraid of non tunables. “What am I giving up?” sort of thing…