Who is the best maker of our generation? We all have our own opinion, but in an effort to overcome personal opinions I was thinking the amount of orders a maker has on his list might be a good way to determine this as orders equals desirability, which of course is what its all about, the length of waiting on its own is not enough as different makers work at different speeds, but if we multiply yearly output by length of waiting list we could come up with a reasonable reliable score.
We know Geoff has a 14 year waiting list, but as he admits himself he only turns our 4 sets a year (Sunday Independent article May 2003) so it would be reasonable to say he has approx 56 orders. Alain Froment has an 11 year waiting list but turns out 9 sets score: 99 – the Andreas Rogge factory has a two year wait list but turns our 35 sets a year score: 70.
Finding out the length of the waiting list is the easy part. Dave Williams has a five year waiting list, Cillian O’Brien a six year waiting list, but I don’t know their rate of production so any information about them or any other makers would be helpful.
Of course this is only just a bit of fun, only time will tell the best maker of this generation as it has in the past.
Sorry, but I don’t think your rating system is worth squat. Perhaps a better measure of quality would be measured in which current makers do all the other makers look to to measure themselves against, or to get help from. Since most makers are very sensitive about this info, you or I, as mere consumers, are not likely to get the full truth about this.
Number of outstanding orders can simply be a matter of where the greatest demand-to-availability is, i.e. market. It has no bearing on quality (since you say you are measuring to find the best). Some makers have closed their books. Does that mean they are of no worth? According to your method of measuring it does.
Sorry, but I think you’re way off base on this one.
Yeah, Rory, I have to agree that I don’t even think that idea of a rating system is a “bit of fun,” it’s just loopy.
Do you seriously think that the number of orders on someone’s book has any bearing at all on how good he is (not being sexist) as a pipemaker?
Rogge may well turn out 35 sets a year with a big shop and a huge website. Geoff and Froment, as far as I know, don’t have huge shops and don’t have websites.
What sets?
Practise? half? full?
Do drones count?
Do repairs count?
Do reeds count?
etc etc
My pipemaker has a relative short waiting list because he works his ass off trying to get everyone their sets in a “normal” time.
Would that mean he’s crap according to your system?
Like others said.., it appears to have some flaws.
Every summer at the Fleadh Ceoil there are competitions to see who is the best fiddle player, piper, whistle player, Ceili Band etc. – where is that going?
It is just a question “who is the best” that’s all, it may be loopy but its probably the most asked question in any walk of life – strange that it should get such a negative reaction here. But anyway the answer to this question needs judges and what better judges than the people who are willing
to put their money where their mouth is, or are the opinions of all the people that are on waiting lists not worth squat.
Where is this going! A definitive answer to “Who is the best maker” but of course we all know who that is!
I don’t think this will work.What about makers working on pipes returned with problems? And spending time reeding horrendous chanters?My pipemaker doesn’t have a list and doesn’t have returns.Most of us do our research before spending and have a good idea of what we want.Why should the piping world be any different to any other instrument? If I bought a clarinet with just one of the many problems listed on this forum it would be straight back to the shop as 'unmerchantable goods.'The choice of sound quality is a wholly subjective thing anyway, provided the things play. We have enough to contend with without fighting the instrument. Vive la difference!
See my Howard thread for my opinion on who makes good pipes. As for ‘the best’ probably highly subjective. It would be more useful to list the worst, like hobgoblin ‘gremlin’ pipes made in pakistan, and other rubbish for potential pipers to avoid.
I think I know who the best maker is. But, you know what does that mean, something else may be more suitable for you. fiddle players don’t walk into the fiddlesupermarktet saying, ‘Hmmm.. let’s see I’m starting the learn the fiddle, could you show me a few Guarneris please or maybe a few Strads, they are supposed to be nice too?’
As for orders and waiting lists. Is the worlds most sold car necessarily the best made one? No, I didn’t think so either.
As for problems, I have seen perfectly fine chanters/set of pipes returned to the maker with fuming letters. What was wrong with them? Nothing but the man who received them didn’t know squat and couldn’t handle them and so perceived the pipes at fault.
Pipers who say they have the perfectly in tune set of pipes. Well, some of us do, but do I take your word for it. No. I wouldn’t, for example I met a man during the Mrs Crotty weekend playing a set of Howard pipes, he too was raving how perfectly in tune they were. In fact out of the scale ONE single note was in tune with his drones. Does that say anything about Howard pipes? No it doesn’t, but it makes you want to check any maker’s or pipeowner’s claims of infallibility for yourself. Only believe your own ears and take other peoples claims with a pinch of salt. By the end of the day, as someone said above, the instrument will have to suit yourself, your abilities and needs.
On occasion, a BEST INSTRUMENT prize is awarded at different events, like a World’s Fair, etc. Problem with the instrument is that it has to sit on display during the event, hardly good for the instrument, and then is judged without being heard.
Well, there are a few criteria that can be observed with some objectivity, the best pipemaker would be a very good turner, have an eye for form and shape, proportion and balance while the lesser man will fare not so well on these. Just go out there, I see plenty of chanter that look like they’ve been carved out of a broomstick with a blunt knife and full sets that look like they have been assembled by a blind man without any basic idea of desing and what is pleasant on the eye. Drones that stick out miles in all direction, ugly shaped keywork, big lumps of keyblocks etc etc. A good set of pipes has an amount of thought gone into it, how it balances on your knee, where the bends in the bass drone sit to make a neat package, an overall eye for detail. I think this sort of thing can be determined without too much personal taste coming into it.
Perhaps the topic should be “what makes the best pipemaker?” rather than who is the best. Who I think is best is subjective not only because of what I like in my pipes but also depends on my level of experience and capablility. There would be many different answers from all on the board, albeit the same group of a dozen or so makers would probably be listed, in a never ending debate. Certain things are objective, as Peter notes above, but to suggest that the waiting period for a “set” of pipes is an indicator of the best leaves too much in question!
Ailin
Brian Howard THINKS he is the best maker and Gods gift to uilleann pipes!!!I remember him years back at Willie Week breaking up a perfectly good reed making class to announce HIS latest discovery and go on to lecture for about 1/2 hour with nobody paying the slightest interest!!Trouble with Brian is ,he didnae invent the pipes,no matter what he says.
Liam
Harrrumph! This is silliness but i’ll weigh in anyway as I have a strong opinion!
I’ve heard a lot of nice things about Williams’ sets but play my Koehler and Quinn set in D and you’d think otherwise. The set has been test driven in Ireland and in the US by many well-qualified world-reknown pipers who proclaim it as the best ever. I have played several K&Q D sets and they are all remarkable. They have just created a new D chanter design that is modified based on the Willie Rowsome D chanter that Mick O’Brien plays. I played an earlier iteration of this chanter and, after warming up to it, loved it. I will play the latest iteration tonite when a friend who just acquired one will visit for tunes.
I don’t want to take anything away from Geoff Wooff as his sets sound wonderful to my ear. However, my K&Q C set, the “beehive,” is an absolute delight. Brian McNamara would not commit as to whether he preferred my C set of his own GW C set…good man for it! The B chanter of K&Q make that I own is superb as well as is a recent newly crafted B set played by Pat Cannady. My point is, GW is not alone at the top of the heap when it comes to flat sets. We should all be so glad of the fact that there are great men such as these making the very best pipes they are capable of making.
Well, I can tell you one criterion that makes not one iota of a difference at the fleadh ceoil . . . and that’s how many gigs said piper/fiddler/etc. has been asked to perform. That’s the only logical extension of your waiting list —> best pipemaker analogy. Interestingly, also, no one at a fleadh is going to pay much attention to who made said player’s instrument until after he or she wins the prize. And then, it’s a curiosity thing.
Yes and no. Many MANY people on waiting lists are on them because of word-of-mouth, not because of personal experience with a maker’s insruments. How many of us are actually good enough at our chosen instruments to make an informed (let alone relevant) judgement about makers? I for one feel competent to judge flutemakers, competent to judge Scottish smallpipe/border makers, and only marginally competent to judge uilleann makers.
I also think it’s not enough to find out what so-and-so is playing. It means something, sure, but you never know what goes on under the table. Maybe Piper B. Goode is playing Maker Ó Theday’s pipes because said set was heavily discounted, or free . . . and said maker worked his butt off reeding and rushing the thing to perfection. Or, Pipina Úi Lleann is a great blower, and a great reedmaker, and could make nearly any bundle of sticks sound like the sweetest Coyne ever.
I think one other thing is . . . and I think this comes from my professional background . . . the best don’t need advertising. We shouldn’t have to hear from the maker who’s playing his pipes. That kind of thing just sits funny with me. I’m not saying anything against any makers, honestly, and that’s not meant as a slam against Seth Gallagher, either.
I just always find it interesting that people get so caught up in who made what, and not how who plays what. It’s really like that in the GHB world with chanters: if a band wins the World’s with Sinclair chanters one year, for example, the next year every top band will be playing Sinclairs, and a group playing Macfarlanes will win.
I will close by saying that I think our instruments, partly becaause of their handmade nature, CAN vary widely in quality. Really widely. And with an instrument as mechanically involved as the UP, technical problems can ruin a set (bag leaking, valve not working on the easy side; bad reeds or a bad chanter on the difficult side). Couple that to the fact that it seems to be culturally OK to teach yourself . . . meaning that you might have no access to an experienced player for advice / teaching . . . and you’ve got a real recipe for disaster.
I feel for each beginner who asks about pipemakers, or flutemakers, or whatnot. Well, maybe not bodhrán makers. They invariably get a few answers from groupies (oooh! So-and-so is the BEST), a few answers regarding the shortest waiting list time, and a few answers recommending a maker in the same geographic vicinity of the beginner. No one says what I feel like saying, sometimes . . . whoo, maybe something else would be better, an instrument for which you could find a teacher. OR, at least listen to people play live (but then that kind of implies the proximity of a teacher . . . it’s tough. Yeah yeah, I don’t mean to sound like a mean bastard, and I know it can be a hobby . . .
So back to the topic. Who’s the best maker. I think Geoff Wooff could very well be the pinnacle of flat sets. Concert sets? Sheesh, who knows.
here’s my best advice: there’ll be a whole lot of different makes to choose from, to pick your favourite maker
(if you are serious about buying).EDIT: i mean, pick the sound you like best.
They invariably get a few answers from groupies (oooh! So-and-so is the BEST), a few answers regarding the shortest waiting list time, and a few answers recommending a maker in the same geographic vicinity of the beginner. No one says what I feel like saying, sometimes . . . whoo, maybe something else would be better, an instrument for which you could find a teacher. OR, at least listen to people play live (but then that kind of implies the proximity of a teacher . . . it’s tough. Yeah yeah, I don’t mean to sound like a mean bastard, and I know it can be a hobby . . .