or the time it takes Lark in the Morning to ship it to you, a tuneable sop D for 165.00. I thought this was interesting considering The Whistle Shop, Song of the Sea, Elderly, etc get the same retail price that the makers do… or has John’s price for his sop D gone up to 165.00?
Lisa
(edited for apostrophe…the grammatical one, not the one I learned in that unit we had on Greek literature…)
[ This Message was edited by: ysgwd on 2002-11-18 10:57 ]
I think there’s something fishy about this.
Chris
On 2002-11-18 10:56, ChrisLaughlin wrote:
I think there’s something fishy about this.
Chris
Agreed… that’s twice the price of a Sindt soprano D!
I couldn’t find any mention of Sindt whistles at Lark in the Morning’s website either.
I spoke with Ann, John’s wife the other day about this. Lark ordered 6 of them just like the rest of us do - for $80 (or $85..can’t remember). I guess they’re banking on selling them in their retail shops or for those that don’t want to wait… The Sindts have not changed their prices.
Hope this helps…
That’s extremely lame. Just one more reason why Lark in the Morning is Shark in the Morning to so many of us.
Chris
Watch out, it could give a few ideas to some shop owner in Ireland…
Az… you’re killing me here! 
Seriously, I absolutely love John Sindt’s whistles, but doubling the price on them for sale in a shop is rediculous. I wonder if they had to wait as long for the whistles as everyone else or got them early because they were selling retail? That would really suck if they skipped in line only to double the price. I know businesses make a practice of marking products up, but a two hundred percent markup is a bit absurd.
Chris
I think that you will find that Lark in the Morning charges too much for everything. Not to mention that the have to be making a significant profit on their S&H fees.
I’m actually surprised that Sindt is allowing that, and I wonder if he legally could forbid this, I guess he could.
they ordered them just the same as everyone else. They didn’t get preferential treatment from the Sindts… They had to wait the 8 months that I waited… Oh well… I think it’s a bit crazy too! Ann let me know that there is another shop that does the same thing too but they don’t sell alot of them… i think there is an “added value” for being able to get them now but not THAT much!
The danger I see in that is that it would be easy for shops to get into buying these whistles, and make the waiting list jump from 6 months to 2 years. So you end up being stucked with a two years waiting list just because some shops want to make the big bucks. I see it as a whistle maker responsability to try to work around this problem.
It would make sens to me if the shops had to pay an extra fee for the whistles, or part of the extra revenue generated by the over-charged sells.
Hmmmmm…interesting, if an individual ordered 6 Sindts and then marked them up 100% giving them a 50% profit margin, I would think they were dishonest jerks trying to exploit John’s work. Yet, if a business that sells musical instruments did the same, I would merely think of it as part of doing business.
I wonder why I think of it that way. Is my brain alone in this line of thinking?
I have never seen profit margins for musical instruments, so I cannot comment on them specifically, but I used to work at a place that had computerized inventory files from retail business’ all over the world, selling everything from socks to crystal unicorns to sofas. 50% profit margin is pretty typical in most retail fields. There are exceptions, like computer hardware, that I know of, but for the most part 50% is the norm from what I’ve seen.
Well, maybe that’s because I’m canadian, but in here we’re trying to avoid situations where, when you’ve got more money, you can have something faster, and when you don’t, you can, but have to wait longer. I can’t really explain it, but I just don’t feel confortable with the situation.
I don’t think you can compare profit-margin with your usual car, electronic or clothes buisness. We’re talking about hand made whistles which are directly available from the maker. I think the whistle-maker is actually the one getting ripped-off, as I wouldnt want shops making money on my products at my expense. I would want shops to make money with my whistle if the fact that they help me distribute my product is helping sales go up. But we’re not talking about that here. Sindt won’t sell more whistles if shops are selling his whistles, because he’s got a waiting list anyway.
I just think it’s too easy for Lark to sell the whistles at twice the price, and I see it as making lotsa money from someone else’s work. But it’s all a matter of opinion obviously.
On 2002-11-18 14:33, Azalin wrote:
I’m actually surprised that Sindt is allowing that, and I wonder if he legally could forbid this, I guess he could.
I don’t think there’s anything to be done about it, at least in the US. When you buy something, it’s generally yours to do with what you want (though I’m not talking about specifically proscribed activities such as sniffing paint). Note Loren’s sale of an O’Riordan for many times over it’s purchase price. What would stop someone from getting on O’Riordan’s list, waiting the 2 years, buying 3 of them, and selling 2 at a tidy profit on Ebay? Nothing, and I confess that I’ve considered it. It just boils down to whether it’s worth it to folks to fork over $80 to avoid a 6 month wait for this particular whistle.
[ This Message was edited by: Wandering_Whistler on 2002-11-18 15:12 ]
I still think Lark in the Morning are dishonest jerks… afterall, these are the folks that sell out of tune, poorly made, just plain junk Pakistani flutes to unsuspecting folk interested in learning Irish flute. If my first flute was a Lark flute, thinking I’d bought a decent instrument, I’d probably just give up in dismay and never try playing flute.
It’s things like that that upset me even more than people wasting money.
I know a girl who started out on the whistle and wanted an Irish flute really badly, so her parent’s bought her an “Irish flute” from Lark in the Morning as her birthday present. She was so happy and excited that she came to show it to me almost right away. I gave it a go and immediately recognized that it was a real piece of junk and if she continued to play it she’d either give up in frustration or develop a very deformed embouchure to compensate for how poorly it was made. I hardly had the heart to tell what she had gotten, especially since her parents are not very wealthy and had made a really big investment in this flute. I did, finally, tell them. I don’t know if they were able to return it to Lark, but it was a real shame one way or the other… broke my heart to see such joy turned to such disappointment.
Best,
Chris
“Some whistles just plain suck.” ~ M. Gandhi
[ This Message was edited by: ChrisLaughlin on 2002-11-18 15:24 ]
Well put… I wouldn’t worry about it too much though… I would just trust John & Ann’s judgement and let the chips fall where they may. If I was making whistles and just dealing direct I wouldn’t have a problem with this unless I got too burdened by retailers orders. 6 whistles aren’t going to push the wait list too far… Also… the reason why I didn’t comment when I saw them in Lark’s catalog last week was because I didn’t think these prices were as relevant to us - but to those visiting the shops or to those not as much into the Internet thing… Anyway… Another thing… I’m sure that Lark didn’t HAVE to have these whistles…they are probably doing just fine… To give them the benefit of the doubt… I will just assume that they would like to provide these whistles as a service to their customers… I waited about 8 months for my whistles from the Sindts… But your average cat coming into a shop while on Vacation in Seattle probably isn’t used to that sort of thing… That said… I would pay $160 for a Sindt if they were charging that much… (that’s how much I dig the whistles…especially the high ones) I wouldn’t worry about that though… I think that the Sindts are basing their prices upon the “Reasonable Person Principle…” Of couse they still may be charging too little…
Meh… (meaning…“whatever…”)
Actually, Sindt is selling for 180$US, but we get a 50% rebate because the cross fingered “C nat” is sharp 
LOL!
Ya know, it’s strange… the C natural problem only exists on his D whistles. I have a complete set and none of the others seem to be effected.
Chris
On 2002-11-18 14:54, vaporlock wrote:
(…) I would merely think of it as part of doing business.I wonder why I think of it that way. Is my brain alone in this line of thinking?
No you’re not alone. Here’s the big-mouth Frenchie again.
Take your shnorkel and wet suit, or skip this post : it’s a long dive, muddy waters…
I understand this is a passion board; hey, this why we all visit it, don’t we ? However, the controversy in this thread is about business. We’re not talking harmony, or interpretation, just money.
I happen to do a similar business to Mr Sindt’s. Except I sell photo prints, not whistles. When I exhibit them, any visitor can buy them at say, 100. Hundred Units (U) whatever they are. I sell direct and only limited runs, numbered 1-15.
However, art gallery owners also come in–some do and ask if they can exhibit/sell my work. I sell to them at the same price. I know they have to do a living, and respect it. So they’re welcome to hike the price at 200 U’s. This is a common raw margin for any retail business (clothes, novelties are much worse, start from a 300% multiplier). They know it’s the game ; they know they sell in places and to people I don’t reach, or not all year round. I also don’t have to pay their rent on a chic avenue.
I wouldn’t even mind them selling at U 300 or 400. This case hasn’t happened yet 
or I would definitely have hiked my prices at my next show.
Now, what would be dishonest from my gallerist would be taking my whole stock, making me sign some exclusivity contract, paying me less than what I usually get, and not selling more pieces per year at that. I.e. I’d work more or same, and get less money. This would be your typical mass retail attitude with many small brands–called exclusive buyer’s market. In this case, you have to drop such a wholesaler, while you still can. Or find his direct competition so you don’t massively depend on one sole customer. This is different, and Americans used to enforce anti-trust laws, right ?
To me there are honest gallerists like the one who kept Soutine painting by buying his canvases when there was no market for them ; he paid cheap, but that kept the guy alive, unsober and painting. The dishonest one was he, who pushed Modigliani to death, than came and purchased the whole stock from a totally lost widow.
So, if you craftsman’s backorder list grows up to several years, it may be time for him to reconsider either his pricelist (and remain a craftsman) or grow industrial. Are you here for a charity, or merely keep your family going and keep fighting with the banker, or scrap your pockets to buy a new lathe? Or are you ready to take profit not only for your blue-collar time spent, but also for lore and invention, which has a price, too, and will feed further research and innovation. A music CD does not cost just $2 of plastic and paper, just as software doesn’t. Just as a photog does not ask time-based wages for his work, because 1/1000 th second shots would almost equal lawyers’ hourly wages
Anyway, let the craftsman’s choices of 1) let his prices follow demand 2) grow in size 3) grow in back-order delays
be his own choice, like selling direct or through retailers.
Or, if he had but one American customer, putting a lot of money in a liability insurance, just in quite probable case ten years from now a customer sues him for choking on a high F, getting deaf or losing the divorce cause of a 3rd octave 
or getting poisoned by sucking nickel in German silver, etc.
Now, thanks of course to all of them early customers who trusted you when you had a small hearsay reputation. They got their profit too, getting your production at close-to-cost price. They had gambling flair, just like early buyers of unknown painters.
Some already made an actual profit on craftsmen whistles by reselling directly, or E-bay auction. Good for them! So, if someone really makes part of his business out of it, i.e. putting cash in advance for half a dozen of the same model, it seems hard to forbid, especially on moral bases. The final customer who paid double is not ripped off : he paid what money he decided he could spend on his hobby, and thought was a correct deal for the money + service. Note there was service to the maker too : regular income, cash advance and… taking care of the customers. Some can be such a pain that some artists craftsmen do prefer not to handle the sales pitch and pep talk and all the PR stuff when they don’t like it or if it’s not their primary talent.
B.t.w. we had that interesting thread on recorder vs. whistle prices… Part of the differential is here : we buy most our instruments direct, but just try and do it from Moeck or Mollenhauer, not to mention Yamaha !
With the development of Internet direct sales, many businesses will have to choose between direct or indirect sales. Many will start direct, but end up through retailers’ network. See for instance what happens with successful sharewares : they end up as regular software corporations. Of course, some vice-versa situations are bound to happen too.
I just think we should be pleased that Mr Sindt accepts to deal direct. This does not make necessarily a sucker from someone who enters a shop and think his craft is still a good deal at double the price.
I knew one country where everything had a fixed rock-bottom price calculated by accountants, even for hand-made musical instruments. Worksmanship was… let’s kindly say adequate, price was quite low. And waiting list years. Understandably, it challenged US for firm belief in its own moral prevalence. It was called Soviet Union.
Now, when I express this opinion, this doesn’t mean I disapprove of posting critics on one given dealer.
Consider I just like playing devil’s advocate.
On 2002-11-18 19:00, Zubivka wrote:
Consider I just like playing devil’s advocate.
Well this perspective is very helpful. I’d like to see a saintly reply. Someone needed to say this. Why were people picking on Lark in the Morning when absolutely nobody was condemning individuals who sell secondhand and mark up for precisely the same reason? (That’s not just a rhetorical question, I’d like to know—can anyone tell me?)
It’s really helpful (to me) when those who are in the business side of things explain how that stuff works. I got caught out recently bagging book publishers when I really didn’t know all that much about their costs or margins and (this is the schizoid bit) when I really didn’t think that many were unprincipled. I think that maybe a lot of us operate with double standards here without even realising it. We know of course that some business practices are unprincipled—reissue CDs at full price when the artist gets no royalties and the recording costs have already been recovered many times over for example.
The more those in our community who make a living making and selling books, CDs, instruments and other works of art and scholarship educate us about how the economics of their side of the business works, the better informed we’ll all be.
[ This Message was edited by: Wombat on 2002-11-18 19:32 ]