*Sigh* I will NEVER get this ornamentation thing.

Whistle
1

Maybe it’s simply my lack of musical talent, but can ANYONE explain in grade-school terms how and when to ornament a tune?

Example: Someone recently posted a really nice version of “Star of the County Down”. I can even play it perfectly as a simple tune - and even I’m bored. There are two or three places where the same note is repeated in triplicate. I know this is probably a place where I really should DO something - but everything I’ve done so far sounds stupid or just plain bad.

I don’t want to be stuck with Danny Boy and Auld Lang Syne forever - is there a solution? Or should I just settle for listening to CDs for the rest of my life?

2

It’s a bit like salt and pepper, you sprinkle on just the amount thats right for you but also don’t over do it !

This prob. don’t help much - but there you have it!

It’s a personal thing just add it where it feels right for you, if sound right it prob. is.

Can’t spell to save my life___________
rbm, in the wilds of the English Lake District, where the fells stand proud, the lakes be clear and the sea be in the celler!

[ This Message was edited by: rbm on 2003-01-14 14:22 ]

3

Well, listening is the key, I think. By listening to a lot of music, you’ll start to develop a FEEL for where ornamentation would work best in a tune.

I tend to use double graces and trills the most…probably because they’re the first ornaments I learned, and they seem to come instinctively…usually when moving up or down in a passage, as I go through the off-beats. Even a single grace will break up a held or repeated note pattern…listening will give you a feel for where it’s most suitable. I also use slides quite a bit in slow tunes.

It WILL come, with time, practice, and lots of listening. All of a sudden, you’ll find yourself throwing in ornaments without thinking much about it, based on how a tune feels to you.

Redwolf

4

In Star of Co Down, I play the first few notes: FA, then instead of three Bs in a row, I make the middle one an A instead. When it goes up to the two high Ds in a row, I do a quick cut between them to break them up instead of tonguing. The same principles apply throughout the tune. The BAB instead of three Bs may not be the way it’s written but it sounds much better that way, and Irish tradition allows for personalizing tunes your own way.

5

Chuck,

go to Brother Steve’s Tinwhistle page

http://www.rogermillington.com/siamsa/brosteve/

and really study the section called “Basic Ornamentation”, especially the sections on taps/strikes and cuts. He talks a lot about when to use them and gives you penty of tunes to listen to. Play along with them. Really study this and don’t worry if it takes you a long time: Once you’ve got cuts & taps down, you’ve basically learned rolls without even trying.

Keep practicing in the tunes, and keep cuts and taps short, short, short.

(and to hear what you are aiming for, give Joe Bane’s Shandon Bells a listen:

http://www.rogermillington.com/siamsa/brosteve/shandonbells.html

(that’s great to play along with, too!)

6

Second Bloomfield. The teachers I’ve
liked best suggested that one use
ornamentation to emphasize a note,
almost as an attack on a note.

Also to add variety and interest.
If a note is sounded three times
in a row, one can tongue it twice
and cut it the third time. A strike
works, too. Or one can attack the
first note by cutting it, tongue
the second, and cut the third.

Cuts can be very beautiful, executed
quickly, especially in Star.

7

Along the ornamentation theme, how do you reach the point that you can spontaneously add ornamentation to a tune, without losing your place (if playing w/o written music)?

I can add a grace note here and there, but can not use more sophisticated ornamentation unless I WRITE it into the music and then practice it that way.

8

I don’t know if this is any help but I first learned ornamentation on slow airs…specifically airs I knew words to and could sing. I played the music as if I were singing it, with the appropriate interpretation…that made it easy (in fact, almost automatic) to target notes as I was playing that wanted a little emphasis.

Redwolf

9

On 2003-01-14 18:32, paulsdad wrote:
I can add a grace note here and there, but can not use more sophisticated ornamentation unless I WRITE it into the music and then practice it that way.

It’s just practice and getting away from sheet music in general (if that’s what you want). Get somebody to record a tune for you with variation in the ornamentation: cuts here, a roll there. Then learn to play it by ear, and you’ll have the version with the roll and the version without the roll in your ear and in your fingers. Then you just practice switching them around, and playing with it a bit. Working on just a few tunes like that you start developing the ability to do it in any tune.

10

Several good points to support here: Listening to a lot of music is extremely helpful. I would suggest listening to Martin Hayes because he plays slowly and it’s easy to here what he’s doing. Also, he varies the repeats so you can see what’s possible.

I notice, invariably, with beginning players, that the ornaments are played with way too much emphasis. Like Jim Stone said:
“use ornamentation to emphasize a note, almost as an attack on a note.” If you give the ornament the same time value as the melody note, it’s hard to tell the difference, and it messes up the rhythm. Bloomfield wrote, “keep cuts and taps short, short, short.” Absolutely correct.

Paulsdad writes in ornaments. That’s a good way to learn how to use them. When the execution of them becomes more natural, it will be easier to pop them in at will. Then, you have to learn discretion. That’s a hard one. Too few sounds better than too many.
Tony

11

On 2003-01-14 18:49, TonyHiggins wrote:
Too few sounds better than too many.
Tony

That’s very true. I’ve got some recordings where the whistler was so enamored of cuts, taps, turns and trills it sounded like he had some kind of palsey. It’s a little like seasoning a sauce…a few perfectly chosen herbs work a heck of a lot better than throwing in the whole spice rack.

Redwolf

12

I’m one of those who doesn’t tongue, so I put in a cut -always- when there’s the same tone twice in a row; when the same time occurs three times, sometimes I make it a roll, sometimes
I stick with cuts. So, anyway, assuming your normal articulation is tonguing or glottal stopping, I’d start ornamenting by replacing some same-note articulations with a cut, and
others with a tap…

Once you get rolls down (Brother Steve’s already multiply recommended site works fine for this), find tunes with dotted quarter notes in them, and go ahead and replace some
of them with long rolls. Easiest is to pick one note in part A and one in part B, and once you can -always- play smoothly with a roll, try playing alternately with a roll and with the original scheme…

Remember that cuts and taps take no measured time, they borrow time from adjacent notes, short rolls - including the cuts and taps - take a quarter note, and long rolls - including the cuts and taps - take a dotted quarter note (or 3 eighth notes).

Learn to tap your foot (or rock side to side, or twitch your nose), and if you like, try a metronome (some people don’t like them, but it is an exterior source of timing); this will help greatly at making sure that your ornaments aren’t taking up different time.

Anyway, once you can play a handful of your favorite tunes a couple different ways (tonguing or cutting, rolls or single tones, etc.) as you have them planned… well, it becomes much easier to change other tunes. At first you have to think about it well ahead of time, and work it in… (what if I put an ornament there… would that sound good? Let me try it… oops, my fingers played it the old way, okay, here we go on the repeat… oops, flubbed the ornament, okay once more through… ah… that does sound good!) but it gets smoother with time.

I can’t drop ornaments in at will as I go,
but I can often find a place or two for an
ornament on the first repeat and put it in
on the second repeat… I’m not sure if I
ever need to be better than that, either,
since if I can do that, then after I’ve
played the tune for awhile with my ornamental variations then I can, in the future, play it whichever way no problem (though I don’t always get the one I consciously intended! :wink:)

And yes, ornaments will throw off your timing, playing variations will cross your fingers up and make you squeak and sputter, but, if you persist (and -slow down- when you’re trying new things!) then it will become more and more natural.

In a nutshell, take ornaments one step at a time, make sure your timing is solid before you add ornaments and again that it’s still solid after you add ornaments, and then just keep at it, play, play, play, and of course, most importantly, have fun!

–Chris

13

I’ve found cuts and taps come naturally to me, enough so that I do need to watch that I don’t overuse them.

But the other ornaments require a more deliberate (read “slow”) development. One of the whistlers in our session group (is that redundant?) uses ornamentation so skillfully the tunes seem to roll right out. I watch his fingers and think, “Aha! That’s how to do it!” Then I try to do it and groan! :slight_smile:

Patience and persistence are critical.