In light of what happened last time, I’ll ask very specifically; Has anyone seen, heard or played the copy of Seamus Ennis’ C# Coyne set that Andreas Rogge pictures on his website? If so, please comment. Merry Christmas.
My C# chanter is a copy of one of the ennis C# chanters. Lovely piece of work. Rest of the C# 3/4 set due anytime now.
Was that before or after the operation. Anyway, I have it on good authority the copied chanters do not sound anywhere near a Coyne chanter. Alain Froments copy of the same set didn’t either. They sound like Rogge and Froment chanter respectively.
Which once more drives home the point that even if a pipemaker can copy exact measurements [and I doubt they can]instruments will not be the same. Forget it, it’s an illusion, there are more things a work.
Note that Andreas’s website says:
“The C# set is a modified [my emphasis] copy of Seamus Ennis’ “Coyne” set”.
To answer Peter’s tantalisingly elliptical question, this suggests that it was after the operation.
That would have been a copy of a modified set wouldn’t it. I think you can read it as modified the design to suit his own style. Which is fair enough but that’s where it stops being a copy.
Please let’s be clear about this, I am not knocking anybody but this whole copy thing is rather big on this board, you hear people talking about ‘my Rowsome copy chanter’, ‘my Ennis set copy’. But let’s face it, do these copies sound anywhere near the originals. Let’s say, if anyone can make a set sounding exactly [or anything even closely] like a Coyne, I want on the waitinglist. Meanwhile I am quite happy with what I have.
So would most people, given what you have!
I’d be a mite careful if you’re expecting it to sound like Ennis’ Coyne, even if it looks like one. As Peter stated, it’ll sound like a Rogge set, but then that’s perhaps what you’re after, which is fair enough.
I think this thread concerning Ennis copies ect is very intersting. I have played sets by Coyne, Kenna, William Kennedy, Leo Rowsome. I own a Willie Rowsome chanter and until recently had in my possesion a chanter of uncertain provenance but it was definately a Kenna, Coyne or one of their contemporaries. I therefore think I am speaking out of direct experience. Of the flat pipes I have played the Coyne was definately the best, although the Willie Rowsome chanter is pretty amazing. The Coyne was incredibly musical particularly the drones. The balance was perfect. Now, I have either owned or played pipes by many of the best known makers in Europe and Ireland. Peter is right that none of them sound like a Coyne, not even close. There are probably many reasons for this, however I don’t think it should be impossible to get there. What would be interesting would be some kind of competition, just for a chanter say, obviously there’d have to some incentive! It would have to be a set design. Everyone gets accurate measurements of say a good existing Coyne in C sharp. Chanters are submitted and a piper or pipers with unquestionable ability would have to play them, including the Coyne, blindfolded! Or something like that. The results might be very interesting, Coyne might not even come first!
All the best
Brendan
I am not sure a well reeded un-interfered with old set wouldn’t stand out. I think the main challenge for pipemakers today is tackling all the problems, some make nice chanters, some make nice drones, some have a way with regulators though very few, maybe only one or two can bring the whole thing together in a way anywhere resembling the old pipes.
I fully agree with Breandan about the Coyne drones [and I mean the Coyne who made Ennis’ pipes, some of the other ones are less interesting] are extremely nice, I had a few hours playing in the Busby Coyne owned by NPU when the restoration was getting finished and very few sets I have played could match that mix. Some Harringtons though and the two Colgans I played had that too. I am not sure I would call Coyne best, they would be one of my favourites, sturdy as anything, workhorses made for the job and some lovely characteristics in the chanter, but some un tampered Harringtons work for me too, as well as the Colgans, though all different in character.
I am not too keen on Willie Rowsome overall, especially drones are a usually bit crude sounding.
Kenna depends on which one, Tommy Reck had me playing his for a few hours and that went well even though some hole positions were a bit odd. The older Kennas are wonderfully made and great to play but I would prefer the slightly more younger instruments over the early periods.
[ This Message was edited by: Peter Laban on 2002-12-20 15:47 ]
Thanks, everyone. Naturally, I realize that if anyone were turning out sets that sounded like a Coyne, people would be hurting themselves trying to get to their checkbooks. I just thought it was an interesting looking set, there don’t seem to be many c# sets around that are a prominent feature on pipemakers’ promotional sites. Just curious.
Probably the single most crucial thing impeding any set from sounding like Ennis’ is the pronounced lack of Ennis. No getting around that.
Probably the single most crucial thing impeding any set from sounding like Ennis’ is the pronounced lack of Ennis. No getting around that.
[/quote].
Sadly, that is all too true.
Very well said, Pat! When we say “copies of” we’re just providing a reference or starting point the maker employed. Nobody expects a copy to be identical in every way. Perhaps we should call them facimiles or Faxes! I have a Fax of a Coyne chanter! My chanter does not have what one would call a Rogge sound so I disagree with the notion proposed that Andreas’ copies of great sets sound like Andreas’ sets. I have a Benedict Koehler Reed in my C#…but that doesn’t make it sound like a Koehler-reeded chanter, either. Truthfully, my C# chanter sounds like none other…well, its fairly close, IMHO, to the lovely Willie Rowsome C# chanter that Kevin Rowsome plays. And, curiously, the two reeds for my C# chanter play very very well in Kevin Rowsome’s C# chanter. Most interestingly, the two C# reeds I own play quite well in an old C# double chanter in Kevin Rowsome’s possession.
When Martin Rochford heard Kevin Rowsome had sent the Csharp set to Andreas for ‘restoration’ he wondered where the world had come to if a Rowsome sent his pipes to Germany to get them going. I don’t think in this light it is hardly suprising his chanter sounds like your Rogge.
Pipemakers don imply by selling sets as ‘copies of’ that they will sound liek the originals. Well, they wish.
I have heard, from a reliable source, that as far as anyone can tell, Andreas tweaked the Bass Reg and possibly not one of the drones. Not clear that any alterations were made to the chanter.
Yeah, but part of the point is that his copy’s not going to be exact, anyway. So he consciously and intentionally changed the bass reg . . . so it’s probably the most different.
Stuart
whose Rogge sounds like a Rogge
[Thread revival. - Mod]
I have a set of Andreas’s C sharp Ennis set, Firstly I would like to point out that the original chanter was a left handed one, Ennis was right handed! So it is obviously not an exact copy. This did affect how he sounded and played them, also the original chanter is acknowledged, by those who have played it, to be difficult to play, therefore Andreas has made some alterations to make it easier, I do find mine to have certain ‘foibles’ that one needs to get used to, there are some fingerings in the upper octave that want to work a certain way, and this can be heard on Ennis’s recordings too, I think my set sound and play very much like the original. They seem to work best at 20 cents flat of C sharp when warmed up. Very close to A 415. It must also be remembered that no Coyne chanters are like any other ones, they are all different, and when a reed is changed over it will sound different anyway. My set matches Leo Rickard’s set and Mark Redmonds in pitch and sound, except for the different reeds of course.ATB.
The Ennis Coyne was supposedly in pieces when James Ennis bought it in London in 1905 (?). It was rebuilt/restored by John Brogan (and converted for a right-handed set for James Ennis). The conversion would have involved making a new (right-handed) mainstock. I’m not sure how much else of the set is original Coyne and what was made by Brogan. There are photos of James Ennis playing the set with a contrabass regulator, which has since disappered, and a different chanter top. The bass drone slide seems to vary in length when comparing photos, which could indicate that it was repaired/replaced at some point.
I haven’t played it but I know at least 2 people who have. Apparently the position of the B hole is awkward, making it difficult to fully close, and affecting the tuning of all notes below (i.e. the majority of the notes 
). So it takes a little getting-used-to. But apparently, once someone is used to it, it plays well.
There’s a video somewhere on YouTube of 4 different pipers taking turns to play the set.
I had a Rogge C# chanter for a while. Not sure if it was based on the Ennis Coyne but it played beautifully and felt very comfortable.
I have a C# Rogge on order, should be coming this late summer or fall.
While every chanter is different, including copies, I do indeed wonder, and even believe that, at fleeting moments, “that” sound could come out. I will see once I get it. As others have said on other threads, it can depend largely on the player. I also like to wonder, if I were able to somehow travel back in time, and give Séamus my Rogge to play, if the layman would be able to differentiate the Coyne and Rogge, aside from obvious pitch differences, and of course the drones…
IIRC Rogge makes his own synthetic drone reeds, I am certainly interested in possibly experimenting with different materials to get the sound I want…