I don’t know where best to post this and I thought it’s not really Pub fare. What I’m hoping for are explanations, if possible, for a particular comment I ran across yesterday.
First, background: the player in question is a classically trained trombone player (band/orchestra experience) learning to play ITM, and has been doing reasonably well as a beginner on whistle. She recently got a good simple-system flute, and has been working at that.
Issue: on flute she tends to play sharp, frequently almost as much as a quarter-tone so. This is something she has been shown she could remedy by tuning slide, and/or blowing more down into the embouchure hole - by which approach this flute is reportedly particularly designed for bringing it to concert pitch.
The comment: after a tune in a group setting, I asked her if she could hear how sharp she was - it was enough so that some people had stopped playing mid-tune and were looking at her - and she said, “No. But better to be sharp than out of tune.” Now, I’ll forestall the obvious by acknowledging that I could have shown far better grace by bringing this matter up in private. But there it is. Anyway, her further contention was that to be flat was to be out of tune, and to be sharp was not. The rest of the discussion isn’t germane, here.
My question: is this reasoning due to what one is taught per certain schools of thought concerning orchestral settings? I’ve never played in bands of that type, so I don’t know the drill. All I’ve ever done group-wise classically was a cappella chorus in high school, where I was taught to attack the note “from above”, which I understood to be simply a matter of approach, and altogether different from being actually sharp in pitch.
I’m just hoping for an insight if anyone has one. Thanks.
I think that what she could have ment was, that it’s better to be constantly sharp, rather than to have some notes flat, and some sharp - because certain pitch shift causes certain harmonies to come out, and it’s probably less violent to play constantly sharp (or flat), than to play mish-mashly out of tune.
Thanks. But given the way communications went, I’m pretty sure that she indeed meant consistently sharp or consistently flat; she did put it that way. As you say, less violent to be consistent, certainly; but trust me, it was pretty bad enough already the way it was. Again to my question: how is being sharp not being out of tune? What is the source of the thinking, there?
I played classically on a silver flute in various bands and small orchestras for many years, and it’s been hard for me to adjust my ear to the different tone of the Irish flute as I learn to play it in tune, and one of the things that has been a stumbling block for me was the hyper-vigilance I constantly experienced about intonation. I’d enjoy following this thread if anyone has any ideas about adjusting my ear to this style and flute so that I can learn to play in tune better.
I don’t know about your friend’s remark about better to be sharp than flat, because my experience coming from my background is that I was constantly reminded about the slightest deviation to being in tune.
This would be interesting indeed. Not having played Boehm flute, I don’t have immediate insights on this. Any ideas from Boehm-to-simple-system fluters?
Thanks. This is very informative along the lines I was initially pursuing. So now I know that at least in some orchestral settings (most if not all, I would have expected), deviation of any kind is considered to be out of tune. This squares with my ear.
Not at all. I’m thinking that eventually A leads to B.
She’s wrong, period. 7 years of french horn, a couple more of trumpet, many years playing in various orchestral / marching band settings, all of that background leads me to say with some certainty that if you are sharp or flat you are not in tune. In other words, if your tuning is not the same tuning as the reference tuning, it is out of tuning, or “out of tune”.
Now, some soloists will play sharp in a symphony setting to be able to be heard better over the orchestra… Supposedly. Not something I actually have experience with first hand, but I’ve heard it said that it happens for the simple reason that it is easier to hear someone who is slightly sharper, and it (again supposedly) doesn’t sound as bad as being slightly flatter. And indeed, if you are perfectly in-tune you run the risk of blending in… Something that might be bad for a concert violinist playing his most important solo of the year… maybe.
I guess I’d tell her two things:
She’s wrong. If she’s not the same tuning as the rest, she’s out of it.
It’s not a solo, she should be blending in, not standing out, so regardless of the wording used, she’s wrong to play as she was and she should correct it.
*Caveat, I tend to play sharp on the flute in big sessions… it is hard to tell while it’s happening.
I did, and boy, was she pissed at me although I did my best to be gentle - but firm - about it. Hope she gets over her tiff and buckles down.
Maybe this is where she was coming from. But a session setting ain’t a soloist’s game, and at more or less a quarter tone sharp, soloing or not…ouch. This brings me to irishrosa82’s mention of issues with hearing one’s intonation in going from generally purer-sounding modern instruments to traditional instruments that are often rich with overtones.
[OT]…And speaking of overtone-rich traditional instruments, if ever I take up the tromba marina, please kill me.[/OT]
In-tune is a variable feast. Be thankful if, in your session, everyone is playing the tonic notes more or less in tune. The other notes may be double-figure cents out unless all have agreed to be in equal temperament. Most people wouldn’t know what you’re talking about, of course. Cheapie chromatic tuners rule OK. Harmonicas are generally tuned to around A=443 or A=444, which is, theoretically, sharp, but I defy anyone to detect a harp as sharp with that tuning. Above A=444 and it starts to sound uncomfortable. I’ve yet to hear a whistle that isn’t all over the place. Consistently sharp would be bad, but otherwise slight accuracies of tuning seem to be less critical.
Yeah, I periodically remind this group (they meet for learning tunes by ear, and more importantly to my mind, to gain insight on how they learn by ear) that they should always pick a fixed-pitch instrument and tune to that, be it concertina, harmonica or box (they’ve been forewarned about wet tuning ), with a big nod to the pipes. Even in matters of tuning and general intonation I want them to utilise their hearing above all, as much as is humanly possible for them, and I rest in the conviction that through examination and application one can eventually overcome difficulties one might have in that, too. The nice thing is in the meantime we help each other, and for the most part ask for help, when we’re unsure of our pitches.
It’s generally understood that tiny inconsistencies are going to happen. There’s no perfection, but one can’t be on the wrong track to shoot for it anyway.
‘This brings me to irishrosa82’s mention of issues with hearing one’s intonation in going from generally purer-sounding modern instruments to traditional instruments that are often rich with overtones.’
So…any ideas? I’ve never seen it put so clearly. It’s probably the thing I’m frustrated about the most.
I would love to hear input from experienced and well-tuned Boehm fluteplayers who have become experienced and well-tuned simple-system fluteplayers. I’m not sure how to encapsulate how I tune a given note on my flute unless it’s maybe a matter of finding the middle ground in the spectrum of overtones. I’m pretty sure I do the same thing, whatever that must be, when tuning pipes. I never really thought about it before, so this is just a stab in the dark. The thing is, I can hear when I’m out of tune. That much I know. Simple system’s all I’ve ever played, so I don’t have another flute comparison to go by. I really wish I had something more solid to give you that might work in print, other than such a subjective approach.
If I’m tuning any instrument to a pretty wet accordion, all bets are off, especially in a session. It’s a free-for-all in that case.
EDIT: Issues of determining actual pitch aside, here’s a practical method I use for general flute intonation, anyway: rather than tuning to A, I ask for a G. I’ve found this method tends to be best for a lot of trad flutes, as the F# is often a tad flat and the A is often a tad sharp, all things being relative. So I go for balance and play the rest into tune. This is assuming my G is tuned as middle-ground spot-on as I can get it (for both sharp/flat variance AND overtone-y stuff, and keeping in mind that its pitch will usually sharpen as the flute warms up thus requiring later pitch adjustment, depending on conditions), and again that tuning is to a fixed-pitch instrument whenever possible (the whole process is a lot, lot quicker than I just made it sound ). I know other trad flute players who also use this approach for general intonation. This may or may not apply to whistles, depending on the make.
Thanks for the ideas. I’d never thought of tuning to a pitch other than A.
But actually, the real “a-HA!” moment came when I read the word ‘overtones’. Not that I didn’t know what they are; one of my earlier teachers had me use overtones as a warmup…but really I’d never thought that maybe that’s the difference in the tones of the two flutes. The silver flute is very focused, but the Irish flute’s tone is …not! I don’t know the word!
It would be great if someone who has played both types of flutes for a long time could post a bit about that sometime. I think I may actually be playing just fine (no one has complained so far..!) but I am so used to that really old uptight voice in my head…“if you’re not perfectly in tune you will lose your scholarship” Aauuggh!
It is true about whistles though, tough to find one tuned right on. Never had a problem with an Overton, Reyburn, Sweet, Thin Weasel, or Water Weasel in that regard.
As I said in another thread, I always tune to G… Not sure why, but most people can find a G on their instruments easier - especially guitars! Never thought of it being the “middle road” note, but I guess it is. I would never tune a wooden flute to a A or an F# for reasons mentioned above.
Hm, weird she did take it badly. Anyway, as said, it indeed is out of tune. I think that you can mix two tracks, then take one of them, shift it 20 cents down, export into mp3, then shift it 40 cents up (so it’s 20 cents up the normal), give her all three versions (those + the one in tune) and ask her, if that one with one track high pitched isn’t out of tune.
I used to play classical guitar, and no mention about anything like she says.
Some clasically educated players are somewhat stuck up, knowing everything better etc. - isn’t it the case?
Yes, I thought of the embarrassment cover-up factor. I think that should have been obvious; recall my acknowledgment of my less-than-thoughtful approach in raising the issue. Mea culpa. That hadn’t anything directly to do with my original question in this thread, and moreover I never said - or even thought - that she was playing sharp deliberately. Perhaps you could give me the benefit of the doubt in considering the possibility that my original question really was concerned with whether she might have had, in her musical training background, some basis for a comment that I found to be, frankly, rather bizarre. THAT was what I was trying to find out first off. You know: erring on the side of caution and eliminating possibilities. Nothing more, nothing less.
And you’re right. I didn’t hear any irony there, and I still don’t. What I do hear is a bruised ego covering for itself as best as it could. Mea culpa again. You can bet I’ll remember this episode and be taking quite a different tack with that sort of thing from now on.
But I’d like to move on, now. How do we hear how we are, or are not, in tune?
), with a big nod to the pipes. Even in matters of tuning and general intonation I want them to utilise their hearing above all, as much as is humanly possible for them, and I rest in the conviction that through examination and application one can eventually overcome difficulties one might have in that, too. The nice thing is in the meantime we help each other, and for the most part ask for help, when we’re unsure of our pitches.
